We know there’s so much that goes into building great products, but what goes into launching them? Michael Luchen is joined by Rebecca Kalogeris—VP of Marketing & Product Strategy at Pragmatic Institute—to talk about launching products.
Rebecca started out as an advertising major and she worked in ad agencies, then moved into marketing for a variety of software companies. [1:45]
Pragmatic Institute is a training company and enterprise transformation company. They work with B2B companies, primarily in the tech space who are looking to transform their product teams, their data teams, and their design teams to make sure that they’re really market and data-driven and are really having the strategic impact that those groups can have within an organization. [3:57]
At the Pragmatic Institute, the core of what they teach is the pragmatic framework. And the framework is the 37 boxes and activities that are key to building great products. But the central one that is key and fundamental is market problems. [4:26]
One of the reasons why product launch is really interesting is because it’s something that everyone is part of. 77% of product managers and marketers are responsible for the launch, so it matters a lot. [6:35]
“If you’re looking at ways that you can have immediate impact on the bottom line and the top line of your organization, getting a good product launched together is really important.” — Rebecca Kalogeris
At the Pragmatic Institute, one of the things they really focus on is making sure organizations have the right launch focus and the right launch communication. [7:53]
The first step of a successful launch is focusing on what’s the specific target and specific segments, as well as a specific launch approach early on so that it is a targeted launch. [9:36]
“To be successful for the initial launch, it needs to be targeted.” — Rebecca Kalogeris
Communication is really important early on as the product is being developed and also once you’ve established the strategic goal, the strategic approach for your launch. You need to communicate that throughout the organization. [10:41]
Rebecca shares what’s the best role to facilitate collaboration within an organization. [12:23]
Different size of launches and releases have different levels of marketing efforts and campaigns and go-to market pieces. [16:54]
Rebecca’s biggest tips and considerations for planning for a launch is focus. Your launch cannot be everything to everyone and there is a big temptation. The more excitement there is about the new offering, the new product, the new feature, the more temptation there is going to be that this is the end all for all and all, but really getting focus is the key. [19:35]
“I am a big believer in brutal honesty and transparency. It’s your responsibility as a member of the organization to be really, really clear as to where you are and whether you’ll be ready for the launch date.” — Rebecca Kalogeris
If you’re an organization where there are many launches at once, one of the red flags is trying to build some consistency around messaging and processes. [21:47]
Rebecca shares how she approaches training and mentoring. [23:38]
Meet Our Guest
Rebecca Kalogeris is the Vice President of Marketing & Product Strategy at Pragmatic Institute, where she and her team provide expert training for data, design & product teams.
Rebecca is a proven marketing executive and turnaround specialist. She’s made a career of joining technology companies and building up world-class, results-focused marketing departments firmly grounded in understanding the market and its needs. At Pragmatic Institute, Rebecca leads marketing and product strategy, championing efforts to fully understand the buyers and their processes and continuously develop campaigns and programs that not only bring new people into that process, but speed their journey through to purchase.
Prior to Pragmatic, Rebecca held marketing leadership roles at a variety of software and services companies, including Shift4 Corporation, Client Development Services and eCommLink.
“A launch isn’t about a product being ready. It’s about the whole organization being ready.” — Rebecca Kalogeris
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We know there’s so much that goes into building great products, but what goes into launching them? How can you ensure that the launch is successful and that your product is ready? Keep listening as today, we’re going to explore preparing for – and launching – products.
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Keep listening for practical, authentic insights to help you succeed in the world of product management.
So joining us today to talk about our topic of launching products we have Rebecca Kalogeris, the Vice President of Marketing and Product Strategy at Pragmatic Institute, where she and her team provide expert training for data, design, and product teams.
Rebecca is a proven marketing executive and turnaround specialist. She’s made a career of joining technology companies and building up world-class, results-focused marketing departments firmly grounded in understanding the market and its needs. At Pragmatic Institute, Rebecca leads marketing and product strategy, championing efforts to fully understand the buyers in their processes and continuously developing campaigns and programs that not only brings new people into that process, but speeds their journey through to purchase.
Prior to Pragmatic, Rebecca held marketing leadership roles at a variety of software and services company, including Shift4 Corporation, Client Development Services and eCommLink.
Hey Rebecca, welcome to the show.
Hi, Michael. Thanks for having me.
Thank you so much for joining and maybe just kind of kick us off for our listeners, can you please share how you got to where you’re at today?
Absolutely. So I actually started out as an advertising major and I worked in ad agencies. Really loved the creative aspects of it.
Then moved into marketing for a variety of software companies and what I really like about marketing was sort of that combination of creativity and getting to feed off, feed that part of it, but also really understanding the strategy and the business and what we were trying to accomplish. So I was worked at a variety of software companies in the marketing group.
And then I worked at Shift4, which is a payment processing company. And like so many of our journeys, it was a, it was a founder’s company who saw a problem in the market. He created a great product and we were at that point as a company, we were trying to decide what to build next. And so I was talking to my father who was in software and he was like, you know, you need a product management group.
So I did a bunch of research and I was like, that’s it, that’s right. We need a product management group because we, inside the building don’t know what we should build for sure. But out there let’s figure out what the next problem to solve is. So, my CEO was like, yes, go build one of those. And I was like, yes.
And I was like I don’t really know how to do that. So I went and took training. Again, my father had taken pragmatic training in the past. I recommended it and then I’d gone on taken it and it just sort of changed the way I looked at both marketing and product management. And then I took what I learned there at several different software companies.
And it really changed the trajectory of my career as well as sort of the trajectory of the products I worked on. And I was so, so passionate about it. I, you know, had my little manuals and books from the first class and I took it in every desk. And then had the opportunity 10 years ago, actually to join Pragmatic that they were looking for someone to head up their marketing department.
And I thought then it is not very often that you get to join a company and market something that you’re really passionate about and that you know really works, right? For me, there’s like Pragmatic where there’s like diet Coke and, you know, I don’t wanna move to Atlanta. So Pragmatic became the absolute perfect place for me to work.
And that’s how I got here. And then, in the 10 years I’ve been here we’ve been acquired, we’ve acquired companies, we’ve grown a lot, so it’s been a great deal of fun.
That’s awesome. That’s a really cool story. And, you know, for our listeners who don’t know, what is the Pragmatic Institute?
So Pragmatic Institute, what we do is a, we’re a training company and enterprise transformation company.
So we work with B2B companies, primarily in the tech space who are looking to transform their product teams, their data teams, and their design teams to make sure that they’re really market and data-driven and are really having the sort of strategic impact that those groups can have within an organization.
And can you talk a little bit about the pragmatic approach that lives at the center of all that?
So at the core of what we teach is the pragmatic framework. And the framework is really, it’s, you know, 37 boxes and activities that are key to building great products. But the central one, though the one that, that is key and fundamental is market problems.
It’s the belief that, if you understand your market problems, and that doesn’t just mean your customers, right? It means your customers, your competitors customers, evaluators, potentials, the wider market. When you understand that market, that is your primary role. And when you do that, you can use that information to decide what to build, decide how to price it, to decide where to market it, to decide how to market, who to market it to. But that everything has to be grounded in that understanding of the market problems.
Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine there’s a lot of detail in there that you have to uncover and perhaps that kind of speaks to the, I think you mentioned like the 37 parts of the framework.
Yes, there is a lot of details. So like the market problems is the DNA that runs through it all, right? But then how do you use that information to, to build business plans? What does a good business plan look like? How do you build, use that information to do good launch plans? Who should be on your launch team? Which market segment should you focus on? So, really from the high level, you know, you should care about market problems all the way down to, that’s awesome.
You should care about that, but how do I then apply it to my pricing strategy, to my roadmaps, at every single piece of that? And then also not just know what to do for those, but also a lot about how you present that internally to get buy in. I think that’s a problem that all of us have in product sometimes like, the right answer and you are just, how do you, you know, convince sounds like it’s a, it’s an almost naughty word, right?
Like I’m not trying to lie to someone or con them, but I do really want them to understand what I’m seeing and why this makes sense. And I think sometimes, we know so much that we just can’t figure out why they don’t see it, right? And so we do a lot of too of how do you build that story out to make sure that you’re getting buy in from the wider audience?
Yeah. That’s awesome. Can you talk a little bit about what makes a great product launch?
Yeah, so, I mean, I think we talk about all sort of parts of the product lifecycle. One of the things, one of the reasons I think launch is really interesting is, for one, I think it’s something that everyone is part of, right?
Product management, product marketing, across the board our survey shows that 77% of product managers and marketers are responsible for launch. So it matters a lot. And it’s also, it’s close to revenue, right? We spend a lot of time as product people thinking about what to build and then you have to, right?
You have to build the right thing, but sometimes that can take longer to have impact. So if you’re really looking at ways that you can have immediate impact on the bottom line and the top line of your organization, getting a good product launched together is really important. And yet it is a place where I see so many companies fail.
The number of market visits I’ve done where development feels like, you know, talking to development. And they say, well, we finished that project, but it never launched, right? Because there’s this disconnect between the finish, the coding, and the QA and the product and the launch, which is to get to market.
It’s like this cold handoff where, you know, if you’re on the sales and marketing side, you’re like, I don’t know, one day this product just appeared. And we were not ready to sell it. And in you’re in development and product, you’re really frustrated because you put a lot of effort into creating it.
So, one of the things we really focus on is making sure you have the right launch focus and the right launch communication. So, that is, and break that down a little bit. So that is making sure you have really clear goals for this particular launch. And that’s, what is the business trying to achieve and how are you gonna measure not, whether or not you achieve this?
Too often, product launches are like, we’re gonna make a gazillion dollars or, you know, our launch is $4 million, but nobody did the math to break down what is that, how many new customers, how many addons? Making sure you have a really strong revenue metrics that you’ve broken down all the way through the process.
So how many purchases that gonna need, how many leads is that gonna need to know whether or not that’s attainable and to know early on whether or not you’re going with it? And then, so, so that’s what is the business trying to copy clear goals? And then it’s really identifying the right strategy for meeting those goals.
So that is, there’s several parts of that, right? So I know that we wanna hit $5 million, or I know we were trying to raise awareness in this measurement. So then how am I gonna do that? So that’s right target and right market segment, I think too often because you’re launching something and it could be good for everyone that sort of becomes the segment you focus on, right?
Everybody could use it. But I think a really successful launch focuses on a particular target for it, right? So we talk about, you know, is this a share of wallet launch? Am I going first and foremost after existing customers and trying the add on? Or is this a wedge launch I’m trying to take, I’m trying to get a little piece of my competitor’s customers with this new product.
In the long run, you know, it may be both of those things, but really focusing in on what’s the specific target and specific segments, as well as a specific launch approach early on, so that it is a targeted launch. That’s gonna be the first step of your launch. Again, it doesn’t mean that’s the only thing you ever do.
If this is a share of wallet launch for your customers in the US, that’s where you’re gonna start. And that’s where you’re gonna put specific metrics, because you’re like not, that’s not where you’re gonna end, right? You’re going to go through other segments to go through, but to be successful for the initial launch, it needs to be targeted.
Yeah. That’s interesting. You know, and I think just kind of, from what I’m hearing so far is you’re talking about the, you’re talking about the handoff of like working on products from a development standpoint, goes through QA and then launch, right? Question mark. But where you’re talking about the real value of focusing on the launch comes from is from the kind of the business and the marketing side.
And maybe if I’m hearing you’re right you kind of alluded to, there’s a lot of teams that maybe aren’t focusing on that very crucial component towards what can make a successful product launch.
Yes, I think, yeah, no. I think that’s a hundred percent correct. It’s both the focus of the launch and then it is the communication.
I think the communication is really important and it’s both early on as the product is being developed. Where are you bringing in your go to market and your launch team? What how they need visibility early on in what’s coming in order to create these plans. But then also once you’ve established, what is the sort of the strategic goal, the strategic approach for your launch, you need to communicate that throughout the organization.
Because, you know, a launch isn’t about a product being ready. It’s about the whole organization being ready. So that means constant communication across, Hey, this is where we’re focused on. This is the story of the launch.
This is what we’re doing. That means that development needs to be on board and each sales obviously needs more. That’s gonna be one of your biggest pieces that you wanna coordinate with marketing communications, absolutely. But even things like finance, right? Are they gonna have to, are there gonna be different invoices?
Is customer support ready to answer these kinds of questions? It really is organizational-wide. And so it’s organizational readiness just in terms of your own internal checklist of what must be done. But just as importantly, if you’re leading that launch, it’s making sure that across the organization, they know those goals, they know the strategy and they’re all kind of singing from the same book as they say. So that everybody in the organization is really focused in, on, on the goals.
So there’s a lot of, you know, cross-departmental collaboration across the organization that has to happen for this to be successful. So in your experience, what’s the best role to kind of facilitate that collaboration?
It’s a really good question. And I don’t think it’s necessarily consistent in every organization, right? So I don’t know that it’s the right title that matters. And I think frequently though, I do see it in product marketing, but it’s not, I think the important thing is whoever is leading this role has a strong understanding of all of the different pieces that go into launching a product, right?
And I think where you get into trouble is if you have someone who isn’t as aware of the, you know, they don’t necessarily understand what support may need to know and when, or they’re not taking into account to ask the questions. It’s okay if you don’t have all the answers, but you need to know you’ve asked those questions.
So someone with a strong cross-functional event, someone with strong project management skills. There’s no question there’s a big part of it. That’s there and someone who, because no matter what title has it’s rarely someone who has managerial authority against all these players. So it does need to be someone who can sort of peer lead, and also inspire into action because you’re going to be trying to see, get them to see the vision, trying to keep them on track without necessarily hard authority.
And being very aware of all of the operational members and functional teams that go through. So I think those skill sets are more important than the titles. We do see in our surveys a lot that it is the product marketing manager or the product manager, but I think it’s a team that leads it first and foremost. But also, like I said, those skills are more important than the individual title.
Yeah. No, that’s, that’s fascinating. And I definitely agree in the focus on skills over title. Just having partnered with a lot of organizations, it’s so fascinating to see when people can rise to the occasion too if you facilitate those types of challenging.
Hey, we gotta align all of our resources and time around this one product launch. And, you know, around, around the topic of that, that, what do you think is, this might be a trick question, I’m not sure. But what do you think is most important for a product launch: being ready for the launch itself or ensuring that product is ready before it goes to launch?
That is, I mean, I wanna say like, yes. Yes. I mean, you’re really not successful without either side, right? I mean, we’ve all, unfortunately, launched a product that’s not ready. No one’s proud of that. We’ve all done that. And I’ve had my share of vaporware in my career. You know, again, the number of companies we’ve talked to where development is done and the product doesn’t go out and you don’t, a) you’ll never make the revenue up from being later to market, but b) you lose that momentum internally.
You lose the focus and sometimes those products don’t launch at all. So it’s really about both things. And it’s really about how well can you get the timing right. So that it goes, things happen as close to simultaneously as possible, you don’t want either one to be leading or lagging.
So, you know, one of the things we talk a lot about on the show is a very iterative process to product development. You know, release something early, get testing done with your users, validate it so that way the user validation says, yes, this product is ready for maybe a launch beyond a beta group of customers.
Is there anything like that considered in the pragmatic approach or is there kind of like a philosophical line that the pragmatic approach has either four or against that?
No, it’s a great question. And I think it’s a great clarification that all our instructors are listening to me going, Rebecca, why didn’t you?
No, no, but exactly there are releases and there are launches. And, particularly when we’re thinking agile and continue release, that’s a really important part of the process. And sometimes, so there’s the internal releases like that, which wouldn’t necessarily be part of a launch plan. So that’s two different ways, right?
When it’s larger market ready, then you maybe have a bigger launch, but also all the things we release don’t need a launch necessarily, right? The way we do with software today, sometimes I may release the functionality, may actually be in the product for a while before I launch it to the market.
Because that feature by itself isn’t maybe a remarkable launch, right? Maybe it mean it’s an important feature, but maybe it doesn’t have all the components that it’s worth needed to solve a particular problem that is noteworthy to the market. So I may, so two of, so let’s say there’s three features that need to be get done so that I can support more robust language characters.
And two of them are released because that’s part of the process. I may not launch it to the market until that third one’s released. Right? So the launch itself in that case is really much more about the packaging and messaging of it. And I would hold on that till all of it comes through.
So again, different size of launches and release have different levels of marketing efforts and campaigns and go-to-market pieces. And that’s also true with sales and support too, right? The continual release is so important for us in keeping products up to date and being responsive, but there can become a certain amount of fatigue, right?
If we’re announcing all these things on a regular basis and sort of disrupting the pool for our non beta member. So there, I think you see a lot of that where there’s continual release packaged together, when everything involved in solving a particular problem or helping people reach a particular goal is ready. And that’s really when the market launch is done.
Nice. It’s always been just fascinating to me, like playing with some of my favorite, you know, software products over the years how there’s kind of so many varying levels of releasing something. Like, as you mentioned, there could be features out that I’m not even aware of as a user for months.
And then it’s there’s a big announcement. Hey, we’ve been just kind of piloting this stuff and it’s been there this entire time and it’s just like, that’s it’s so fascinating how you can, I think kind of separate the widget, so to speak, of the product from the marketing and the launch itself.
Absolutely. And I think, I mean, I think that sometimes people underestimate how much a move to agile and continue release changes the way we market and launch things, right? We’re very aware of the changes of that in the development process, in the QA process, in the product management process. But I think sometimes like there’s a big, the really successful marketing departments have really shifted the way they work in order to be able to both get the big announcements they want and do the pieces right.
Their whole rhythm has changed, you know, you don’t have a year to plan a launch. So it’s a really interesting thing. And it’s also really interesting. I’ve certainly talked to clients where there is friendly, we’ll call it friendly disagreement internally about what a particular launch and whether it is noteworthy.
Right? And so there, obviously the answer is doesn’t matter to your audience and your market find out from them, but it’s interesting to see.
I would love to be behind the discussions of some of the, you know, companies that lead, have the leading apps installed on billions of phones.
You probably can think of them that have the app updates and it’s always just bug fixes and improvements. And then like two weeks later, you see, Hey, this big blog post from that company, it’s like, here’s this major new feature that you can access right now if you open up the app on your phone. And so it’s kind of, you know, I think just one of those day to day examples, I think of, to what you’re talking about.
One of the things I’m curious about is just, especially for our listeners, what are your biggest tips and considerations for planning for a launch?
I mean, I think, for me it’s focus, we’ve talked a little bit about this, right? It’s focus. Your launch cannot be everything to everyone. And there is a big temptation.
The more excitement there is about the new offering, the new product, the new feature, the more temptation there is gonna be that this is the end all for all and all, but really getting focus is key. And then just beating the drum of that focus, I think often, particularly when we’re leading a launch, we’re so in the details, right?
Like we know everything and we know exactly where everything is and we’ll be walking around talking to someone and they’ll be like, wait, what are we doing again? And you’re just like, I mean, I’ve told you at least three times, right? Like, that’s your internal response, but that’s cuz we’re living and breathing the launch.
Everyone here is already working on the next step or they’re doing support for the previous stuff. So it’s really important not only that you communicate with the partners in the organization, but that there is a consistent jumpy because the, you know, in order to keep enough focus. And that means like, do you have, we call it the 92nd launch strategy.
And it’s not cuz it took you 92nd to, to create, to keep much longer. But it’s like that 92nd quick way. It’s your elevator pitch for your launch. You should know it. The rest of your cross-functional team should know it. And that should be something that you’re continually repeating so that everybody knows where we’re focused.
And then I just think I’m a big, I am a big believer in sort of brutal honesty and transparency. Like it’s your responsibility as a member of the organization to be really clear as to where you are and ready, whether you’ll be ready for the launch date as is. It’s, I would much rather communicate early because there are things we can change if we know early, but if you surprise me the day before and you’re like, oh, actually we didn’t do that part.
That’s problematic. So just being honest with each other helps us organize towards a launch.
And, you know, if I’m a practicing product manager in an organization right now, we haven’t really given much thought to launch strategy. Are there any like major red flags that I should be looking for of like, Hey, this is something that I need to look into, investing more into, because I’m observing this within my team.
Yeah. I mean, if you’re an organization where there are many launches at once too, I think one of the red flags trying to build some consistency around messaging and processes. It sounds really like awkward, but I think, too many times we see each product or each team for each launch owner doing it differently.
And so if you are doing it differently and I’m doing it differently, then Michael, our partners in there are gonna have zero idea what to expect from us or what’s expected of them. And so to some extent, just like let’s have some standardization, is a really good piece. I think again, are your goals for your launch realistic?
Do you have clear communication pass with you or the organization, and a clear sort of milestones to check in? Like we should be here, if we’re gonna do this, then we need to be here. By here is a really important piece. And just, do they really like when you’re product and you are in your standups and you will know exactly what’s happening, does the go to market side of the house have visibility?
What is your connection points in order to make sure that they see what’s coming down the pipe?
Yeah. So communication. Which, yes I agree. It’s something that is surprisingly it’s easy. It’s so simple, but it’s so easy to, kind of fall to the wayside and not be prioritized.
It is and again, I think we often think we communicate because we told them once and we told them once brilliantly, right? Cause probably a wonderful PowerPoint that went with it or memo. But they’re, you know, there’s just so much other items going on. So have you told them enough, is part of it.
Yeah. So given your role at Pragmatic, one of the things I was curious about coming into this show recording was, how do you approach training and mentoring?
So, you know, that’s a great question. So, working for a training company, you certainly do understand the importance of training and the importance of kind of getting everyone to speak the same language. So we do even, everyone in our organization goes through our own training courses.
That’s always helpful, but then we do have set training budgets, right? So we do external training and then we have a pretty, a pretty strong mentoring program. It is not super formal, but we have onboarding buddies and you have cross-functional buddies. So you have onboarding problems buddies to help you kind of learn, you know, where we used to say, like, where’s the ice maker? Now we’re all virtual.
So I don’t know if you have an ice maker, right? It’s all those hidden things, but then really cross-functional pieces. And then we have a lot of opportunities within the marketing and product group, in particular, that’s not fair. They may have do it, the other groups, I’m not as aware of those. So I’m sure they have the programs as well. But we do sort of biweekly knowledge-sharing sessions where the different leaders come in share out with the wider team. So truly trying to build that cross-functional piece.
I think the more as a leader that you can build in a culture of mentoring, both you mentoring out, which for me is like one of my favorite parts of the job. So that’s always fun. But also building that same belief, and sort of passion for doing it within my next layer of reports is really where I think I started to see the most dividend, right?
When I was trying to carry the full load, well, that there’s one piece, but when you see that sort of whole discipleship, that’s a terrible word for it, but out there where everybody’s thinking about that mentoring, and bringing it along, it’s been really watch, fun to watch that impact grow.
That’s awesome. And I also just really appreciate the cross-functional emphasis of the approach to training. It’s something that is, you know, surprisingly not there in a lot of the other trainings that I’ve gone through. And that can, I think, just lead to maybe a more empathetic and collaborative approach to everything including product launches.
Absolutely. Because do think, you know, I think the empathetic thing is key. Right? We talk about it all the time with our market and really understanding them. But all of your partners internally, I mean, you can almost have a persona in your head for them. Right? How do, what do they care about and why does it matter?
Because that changes how you approach them and talk to them and partner with them. And also I think that more and more companies are virtual. Some of the sort of cross functional stuff you just got, like walking through the kitchen when we were kind of going up in our careers, you have to find ways to intentionally build that in because they’re not gonna run into finance in the kitchen and say, oh, you’re closing for the month.
How’s, you know? So how do you build that in with intention is something that we continue to try to figure out how to do better and better.
Yes. Yes. I completely agree.
Awesome. Well, Hey, before we wrap up, I’d like to ask some personal lighting round questions, if that’s okay?
Awesome. First, which of your personal habits has contributed most to your success?
I would say curiosity. Curious about everything. New car, I will price everybody in your car. And that absolutely pays dividends in, in products.
Yes, I absolutely agree. What is your favorite tool that you use regularly?
I am gonna, you know, I’m gonna say Monday.com. Our project management. I both love it and hate it. That is often the case.
Every, I feel like every project management tool is that way. So it’s pick your favorite of that. Yeah.
And lastly, for someone at the start of their product journey, what is one piece of advice that you would give them?
I would say, let your passion shine. I think so much of what we do is, we sort of lead by influence, and the passion is also what we talked about with the curiosity and all of that. People get excited about that. And more importantly, you’re excited about that and if your passion is coming through and you’re really letting go it’s fun that way.
And then you can help other people have fun. You can get a lot done while having fun. That’s my firm belief.
You can get a lot done by having fun. Really great words of wisdom I think to wrap up on.
Thank you Rebecca so much for joining the show today.
Thank you, Michael.
So for everyone listening, you can find out more about Rebecca on LinkedIn, and you can learn more about the Pragmatic Institute at pragmaticinstitute.com.
Again, thank you so much for joining Rebecca. I’ve certainly learned a lot today on product launches. And just a really real pragmatic approach to them.
Thanks everyone for listening and be sure to leave a podcast review, let us know what you think. And if you haven’t already, please follow and join our community over at theproductmanager.com.