Ask the Expert in Product Design with Koji Pereira

[00:00:00] Michael Mordak: Latest

events in our community event series. Um, we've been hosting these regularly this, uh, since the beginning of the year, really, and these continue to grow. These continue to be a great way. We get some great feedback on from folks about how they get to engage with the experts who contribute to the product manager.

Um, so we're really excited to get to put these on and to host these sessions for, for folks. Uh, so really looking forward to it. Um, for those of you who don't know me. My name is Michael Mordock. I'm the community producer for the product manager. Um, and a fun fact about me, I am in Canada where it is not Thanksgiving week.

I know that it is Thanksgiving for a lot of our U S uh, readers and listeners and folks. Um, so we're probably going to see a little bit [00:01:00] of lower attendance today because I think most folks have taken some time off, but, uh, for anyone who's maybe still on the clock, uh, we're going to have. Uh, a session with Koji here and, um, anybody who was not able to attend, we'll get to check out the recording after the fact.

And with that, I want to jump into it. So today's session is going to focus on product design. We're speaking with a top voice and thought leader in this space. We have Koji Pereira today. Welcome Koji.

[00:01:28] Koji Pereira: All right. Thank you, Michael. Excited to be here. Seeing some people saying hi here from Brazil, from San Jose.

That's pretty cool.

[00:01:36] Michael Mordak: Yeah. Amazing. Super cool. Um, Koji, real quick, I saw you posting, uh, on LinkedIn recently. It was kind of a cool thought. You, you were asking the, you know, your network, whether they prefer to design for AI or with AI. And I thought the responses were kind of interesting, but I'd also love to hear from you, what have you, what do you, were you preferring at this point?

Uh, is it [00:02:00] designing for AI or, or with AI? Yeah, I was

[00:02:04] Koji Pereira: just curious because, um, I've seen designers talking about AI. There is always this fear of AI replacing the jobs, that kind of typical thing. But also, it's been a little I don't know, blurry to me to see how they are applying or using AI or designing for AI in the daily life.

So that question was more like to see what are people doing, but also what they're curious about. Personally, I am more curious about designing for AI. So how we can actually create an interface that facilitate the conversation between, uh, an AI agent versus a human. Um, there is always this, you know, basic traditional AI interface, which is the chat bot.

But [00:03:00] I don't think the chat bot is the most optimal way to interface with AI, especially if you're dealing with, let's say images, or if you're dealing with. Even UI itself, uh, or with a canvas, for instance. So I was just curious about how, how people are thinking about that. Because my feeling is that people, a lot of people are defaulting back to, and companies are defaulting back to, uh, the chatbot interface.

And again, it's a very specific type of UI where things are linear. You cannot, you cannot go back specific step. It's a little bit of a black box. You don't really understand what's going on there. So yeah, it was trying to understand that. And I see that now even OpenAI is trying to go back a little bit, show the steps, allow people to change some of the paths to get to the answer, but.

I think we're just in the [00:04:00] beginning now.

[00:04:01] Michael Mordak: No, that's amazing. I love that. And I would also, I'm curious to hear from the folks that are on the call here too. Feel free to let us know in the chat. Are, are you in a state where you're preferring to design for AI or with AI? How are you thinking about that?

With that, you know, you know, these sessions are driven by our live audience. Um, and I'd love to hear what kind of questions or challenges you're facing. Feel free to any time to, to use the chat here. I'm going to get us started while you think of questions. Uh, and while you kind of get warmed up, I'll get us started with a few things.

We also had somebody submit a question ahead of time. So we'll, we'll start off there. Um, but feel free to plug into the chat and, and, uh, and use this time to your advantage. Um, So right off the top, Koji, uh, you know, you started your first design job over 20 years ago. Uh, and not only that, but you started out in Brazil and eventually moved to the US.

So during all this time, I would love to hear what's changed from, from your perspective in product design. You know, what were the challenges that you were solving, you know, before the year [00:05:00] 2000 and, um, have things be, have things actually become easier in product design or are they just more complex?

What's happening? Uh, display

[00:05:10] Koji Pereira: my age, but, uh, to me, maybe there is like three or four phases that I came across in my career. One was just the initial contact with design, which was through graphic design and modeling, Everything was super cool, like, was learning a lot of stuff. Um, it was also the time where I started to play more with computers.

And, uh, in that phase, I did a lot of posters for bands and concerts and, uh, album covers. Um, but it didn't last that long. It was maybe like, I don't know, three, three years. of my career with graphic design. And then I, I moved to web design back in the time. Um, so that [00:06:00] was when I started to build websites for bands.

And also I started to build this product where people could order food from, and it was like desktop computing. So people would order a pizza in our website. We have like a, service connected to a facsimile that would send the pizza, it would send the pizza place a order and they would deliver and get the money in cash.

So it's like very primitive version of, I don't know, DoorDash or something like that. Um, so that was like maybe the, web to dot old phase of my career. So at that time it was a lot about intuition. Um, some testing, not a lot of testing, not a lot of data. Um, things were very small. Like we didn't have a lot of sample to, you know, understand what we're basically doing.

So it was very [00:07:00] intuition based. And then. The, maybe like the third phase that I'm still on it right now, which is more on the product design phase that started with Google when I joined in 2000, I think it was 2008, first time to work on Orkut and, uh, that was my first project. Orkut was a social network, uh, from Google before Google Plus.

Um, then I stayed at Google for pretty much 10 years. Then went to Lyft, um, Twitter, Neon, which was a fintech, Brazilian fintech that I was working remotely during the pandemic, the last times of pandemic. And now I am at Sigma working with, um, business. Uh, product, basically enterprise product.

[00:07:54] Michael Mordak: Super cool. I think that's so interesting, um, and awesome that you got to, [00:08:00] uh, design like some band art in the beginning.

I love that and how it kind of evolved through that. Um, amazing. Super cool. We have some, some questions coming in already. So I'm going to start with a question that was submitted ahead of time. Uh, this came in from somebody, uh, who I believe is not on the call today, but, uh, Got their question anyway, so they get to see it in the recording, um, but right off the bat, what is the difference, uh, between a product designer and product manager?

And that's a little bit high level, but part two is how can these two roles work together, uh, well without encroaching on each other's tasks?

[00:08:36] Koji Pereira: Yeah. Um, I think the difference to start with that, the difference, I'll try to like give a specific explanation so it doesn't feel like I'm just repeating what You can read on the internet pretty much about it.

But my feeling is that the, um, the product manager to me thinks about the, why a hundred [00:09:00] percent of the time, why, why we're building this, um, why this is important, why what we're building is unique to us, um, They do other things around that, like just project management, helping the team to get together, get, getting the team motivated.

But the why to me is the most important part. And the designer basically shapes that why, right? A product designer shapes that why and helps to build the why too. So It might, it might not, they might not be the actual owner of the Y, but they contribute with the Y and they build what the Y actually is.

Is physically or how, how that transform into something tangible, um, how they collaborate together. In my point of view, it's maybe the, the hardest, uh, pair ever because there is [00:10:00] a lot of overlap when we say the why, right? Like, there is a little bit of push and pull there. Um, and also because sometimes I feel like designers don't know exactly where they can stop PM.

Sometimes they don't know what they can stop. And therefore there's like a lot of tipping tolls and getting a little bit in each other's space, which is fine. I think some, some of that is actually, um, you know, it's healthy. The problem is when that becomes. Like a, I don't know, something that really, uh, blocks one of them to do their best work.

And usually sometimes what happens is that usually designers will feel more pressure to just execute. Um, And I don't think it's necessarily the problem with the PM because sometimes the PM is also being pushing to just [00:11:00] execute and not think about the why. It's more about the company culture, right? So everybody in these two roles should be able to not only execute, but also think about the why, uh, really understand why we're building it, um, create a narrative to what the product, uh, purpose is basically.

[00:11:23] Michael Mordak: Yeah, I love that. I love that you brought up the fact that like the PM can sometimes also be pushed to, to just, you know, be, be delivering, because I think that there's been a lot of discussion lately in the PM world about, you know, are you in a feature factory or are you a true, you know, strategic PM?

And I think, yeah, there are definitely those environments where people are just pushed to deliver on, on these features and products and get them out the door. Um, But I love that the way you kind of pulled the two apart there. Um, amazing. And then we have some questions come in as well from, from Thomas here.

So the first one is, [00:12:00] uh, is the design role going through a consolidation phase after fragmentation of expertise? Um, so coming back to a full stack designer of some sort.

[00:12:11] Koji Pereira: I think if you look at the big picture, yes, because when I joined Google, we had, I don't know, UI design. No, we had actually had like interaction designer, visual designer, um, prototyper, motion designer.

Uh, all of those were really like role named at Google and over time, I think the first company to consolidate was Facebook. The Facebook just started with this term called product designer. And then all the other companies. You know, all the industry follow that. I think Google still name it interaction designer, which is more like UX designer.

And Apple is still name it human [00:13:00] computer interaction designer, which is even older term. So, uh, and you know, product designer is supposed to be more like a full stack. Um, I expect my team, for instance, to be good at, um, You know, have a good sense of pretty much all the umbrella around design, like everything that You know, is related to design, visual design, information, design, interaction, design, at least they have to have a good sense of what it is.

And, you know, they at least have a good judgment of it, but I expect them to be stronger in one pillar. So pretty much like a T shape or a pie shape. I don't know, some people call pie shape because it can have like. Maybe two areas that you're have a higher expertise on. But the idea is that, um, we, I think, like, right now we expect people to be more generalist.

But in the past, I don't know, even in [00:14:00] Brazil, I was in Brazil back in the time where we, we had, um, Specifically, um, people who are just doing information architecture. So just like wireframes. And, um, that was a role, you know, people just be information architects and just build wireframes, give to a designer, then the designer will transform that into an.

Actual design or a final design again. I'm not a big fan of that. I, although I did it in the past. Um, but looking back, I think it wasn't great because you, I don't know, it's just, it just feels so fragmented. Then it's hard to see how your work will affect the final outcome. And it's also frustrating for the designer because, um, it's hard to see your contribution to the project

[00:14:55] Michael Mordak: completely.

I'm curious just to build off that. Um, I mean, with, [00:15:00] with that kind of consolidation of roles, does, do you think that it changes? I mean, do, does that mean that we're letting some of those folks go because we don't have those roles anymore, or do they just become, does everyone kind of just get a generic title, like product designer or associate product designer, just to, just to make the role sound more generalist, to have a more generalist feel, um, but while maintaining the, the staff.

[00:15:24] Koji Pereira: Yeah, to me, it would be more like the latter, right? Like I, um, actually here at Sigma, we had a visual designer in the team. And I basically, over time, I just showed them like, hey, we will actually like, you're very well all around the designer. You're not just visual, right? Like I can see in your work that you think about motion, you think about interaction.

And. And you do it very well. So now it's just an opportunity for you to grow in those areas more. And, just not like, Cause the way that visual [00:16:00] designers worked in the past was like, Someone will, similar to what I said before, Like someone will hand you a design, And they will just like, polish visually, Um, add colors, maybe move some things around, but not a lot.

And again, I think that's a very fragmented and not holistic way to look at design. And that's basically what I was trying to sell them. And then over time he became, he changed the title to product design and he's doing very well. So my feeling is that if you're a good designer, um, I doubt that you wouldn't be able to adapt because the good designers that I know, they don't even just do product design.

They do, I don't know, like illustration at home or they do interior design or they do ceramics for fun. You know, you're basically, as a designer, I feel like you're a maker, right? Like you're basically very good at building [00:17:00] things. And some of those things you do maybe for work. Some of those things maybe you do for fun.

[00:17:08] Michael Mordak: Yeah. I, yeah, amazing. And it actually ties in perfectly with kind of part two of that, of that question, because you're talking about designers being makers and I mean, obviously, you know, Product managers are also building and developing their products. They're also makers. And so the question here is, is the design role consolidating with the product role?

It seems to be a raising theme amongst PMs that everyone's going to fight for the same product leadership role.

[00:17:33] Koji Pereira: Yeah, again, I think it comes back to what I was discussing, right? Around the product design versus product manager. I think it's hard to know where Each space starts and ends, but I've seen many cases where the designer is kind of driving the direction.

Um, of course, like the default product managers will be driving the direction. Again, what is [00:18:00] important to me is that the person who takes care of the why, or will like write documents and be able to like spread the word and take that to leadership, uh, that's the Usually the product or product manager, but it doesn't mean that was driving the direction Is the product managers all the time could be the product designer could even be engineers that engineers may be like building something like For instance that is highly technical when I was at google They're building the waymo inside google the self driving car And that was a pretty much like a engineering driven organization.

So engineers will just start tinkering with code, figure out that, okay, here's what we can do. And then everything else will move around that, like design, product management, um, marketing, everything. So it really depends. Maybe you work at a company [00:19:00] where you're building something that is fundamentally a new design.

Then everything else will move around that new design. I

[00:19:09] Michael Mordak: like that it, it sounds like it's almost like people need to kind of accept a bit more of like a, a flowy org structure. You know, like sometimes there are certain teams that are leading the, leading the charge, leading the strategic, uh, uh, uh, you know, initiatives.

And then sometimes they, you know, they back off and there are other teams, other parts of, uh, the team that, that have to lead it. And, um, I know that would obviously come with a lot of difficulties because. Everyone always wants to be leading. They want to be, you know, seen as the ones who are like the owners of a project to, to be able to take credit and that kind of thing.

But I think that, yeah, like in terms of in this situation where it's like. What, how can we do this in a way that makes sense and clarifies roles for everyone, you almost need to accept that more of like a flowy structure where it's like, sometimes some people take the lead and you need to accept that.

And I think that comes with like, just being a good, good leader and good team [00:20:00] member, I think.

[00:20:01] Koji Pereira: Yeah. And I'll always come back to the company culture too, right? Like there are a few companies that, you know, things will be more, um, skilled towards design or through product. And again, there's pros and cons.

Uh, I would actually doubt. If everybody wants to be leading all the time, sometimes you just want to, you know, do your work and not necessarily lead Um, and I think it's phases or times of your life Um, or it could be just like tenure, right? So for instance I don't know, if you get companies like Snapchat, Airbnb, even Lyft or Apple, they're more design driven, right?

Um, even here, Sigma, um, we're very design driven. It's not necessarily super visible outside because the company is kind of growing at this point. But, um, our founder is a big fan of design and he's like the [00:21:00] biggest support in here inside the company about design. So he, he knows that design is important.

Um, so having like CEO or founder who understand that, I think it changed the company culture. Uh, whereas for other companies, like even Google, for instance, it's, You know, definitely more engineering driven. So, um, and there's other companies that are more product, uh, driven. So I think it really, you can try to like, if you want to be, let's say, okay, I want to experiment to be on the forefront and drive the The product as a designer, maybe join like a company like Snap and see how he, how he feels.

There's pros and cons again, uh, of being leading with design.

[00:21:50] Michael Mordak: Yeah, those are great points. Um, and now I knew that this was going to come up. I knew AI was going to be a topic. So for everybody who's keeping your bingo card there, that's [00:22:00] probably the center tile. That's like, that's gotta be a freebie. Um, But we're going to jump into it because it's got to be talked about.

So what are your thoughts, Koji, on using AI on the design workflow just to be more efficient versus using AI to navigate upwards on more strategic roles and more strategic conversations?

[00:22:19] Koji Pereira: Um, I think in general computers are very good at logic and numbers and basically science, right? Like mathematics included.

Um, so anything related to like testing things, experimenting, um, Creating a variation or, uh, the even defining a small change on the UI, I think AI can do that very well. Um, anything that at least from what I'm seeing at this point, uh, I think would change a lot over time, but at least for now, I don't think [00:23:00] AI being very creative.

In terms of, um, creating something that feels new and fresh, you will always look for patterns and things that already exist and try to find an average, right? Like what's the average of Just 10 things and then the average could be seen as good, could also be seen as, you know, repetitive. So for me, I feel like, um, I try to look at art, for instance, which is way more, uh, out of the box, right?

Like you can build anything and then you, you see what a people are doing with AI in terms of art is very boring. Most of it, the, the. The things that are cool are the weird ones that have bugs on it or glitches that, I don't know, a human transforms into a dog, that, that's the most exciting ones. But that's almost like by accident.

So, I feel that designer role will be, [00:24:00] I think in general, not even design, but I think in general, things that are a little bit more, Artisanal, let's say, or, you know, for lack of better term, but things are a little bit more like handcraft and, uh, customize and with human touch will be more valued over time and things that have identity, personality, and a narrative behind it will be more valued over time.

And that's the. You know, I can see, you know, machines doesn't have, they don't have a, they don't have a story to tell. They don't have like a human to human connection story to tell. That's the only thing that we can do. Um, and then for that, I believe, um, I think. designers will be seen as stronger if they can print some sort of mark, um, to a company or to a brand.

So to me, again, to talking about the, even the first question here before, um, even brand [00:25:00] design and product design, I think there is a tendency to see those two things more mixed than we saw in the past, my feeling.

[00:25:10] Michael Mordak: Yeah, super valuable insights. And, um, for, for folks that are asking the questions too, like if there's anything, if any follow ups or anything, anything like that, feel free to post those in the, in the chat.

Um, we've got a couple more questions coming in, but we're at the 30 minute mark. So what I like to do here is just stretch it out a bit. Let everybody cool off a bit. Cause there's been a ton of great insights here. Um, and so we're going to ask a quick little. Little, uh, curveball question just to, just to lighten the mood a little bit.

And, and Koji mentioned that you were doing band art and, and, and CDs, uh, covers and that kind of stuff. I am a big fan of like CD art. I remember when he used to get the CD roms and you'd open it up and you'd get the little pamphlet and you get to see all the art that was in those booklets. I think that's like a truly lost experience now because everything's just on a streaming service, but, um, Along that line, what, uh, what [00:26:00] was your first.

either band you were into or concert you went to? Oh, okay.

[00:26:07] Koji Pereira: Uh, I think one of the first concerts I went at least the one that I had in my memory, have in my memory right now is Bad Religion and Sex Pistols in Brazil. Uh, yeah, Sex Pistols was already very old band at that time. It was fun to see, you know, both of them live.

Um, Yeah, I had a punk rock band, was not famous at all, but we played in Brazil, in a small tour, and super fun, just to like, the idea was, again, like, you don't have to be professional to play music, right? Like, just go and do it yourself, take your whatever guitar and Play a few chords and build a band, right?

So that was the idea. So I basically started with design in the same way. Um, I ended up having formal [00:27:00] education after that, but I started with this as a designer before as a self taught designer.

[00:27:07] Michael Mordak: Wow. That is super cool. Awesome. I love that. We're not, we're going to have to get a Spotify link after this so we can check out the band.

I love that. All right. Okay. Let's jump back into it. All right. Back into the serious career stuff here. Um, okay. So in this one came from, uh, from Igor, uh, thanks for the question. So in an AI driven world, user experiences will increasingly be personalized based on based on usage. This means that a product functionality and usability could be defined as, um, Could be defined as users interact with it.

How do you see the role of UX research and discovery in this new context? Do you think it will fade away or will it take on new roles in the design process?

[00:27:52] Koji Pereira: Yeah, I mean, I think it will be similar to my previous answer, which is getting to this more like [00:28:00] holistic, let's say, art director, designer, slash product designer role where you're basically trying to connect all the dots about a specific product and brand, make sure that it's all coherent, has a point of view and an identity that is not just like being copy and paste from other average AI, uh, outputs and, uh, making it happen.

I think that's to me is in a way, I think what we're losing, though, is more of the, over time, more of the junior roles, which I think it's not good because that's how you learn. Um, but I think over time, all of the smaller tasks will be potentially easier replaced by AI. Um, which, again, like, I don't think it's great, but that's just [00:29:00] reality when I look at it.

Um, And then we'll have to relearn, you know, how do we get to, uh, the market? How do you start as a junior designer? If there is no opportunities for you, that's stuff. And that's what I think will be the biggest challenge of the, um, of the, you know, the younger

[00:29:19] Michael Mordak: generation right now. That, that makes a lot of sense.

And I'm really curious. Have you put thought into like, how do you see that playing out? I mean, if, if there are no junior roles for folks to kind of learn and get the ropes, because it's, there's. You know, tasks and roles have been taken over by AI. You know, where do people get those, those fundamental, that fundamental knowledge and skillset to be able to, you know, work their way up and take those more strategic, uh, roles.

[00:29:46] Koji Pereira: Yeah. I think one way is the companies, like for instance, here we have internships, right? The companies offer something to. Uh, get someone very early in their career and then help them [00:30:00] grow to a point where they can start to contribute more. So you basically, you're investing into someone over time. Uh, because if you don't do that, then you know, it's hard because There is not a lot of senior designers in the market.

All of them at some point will have jobs. Right now it's, it's a kind of inverse case, but in the future, hopefully soon, uh, again, we'll, we'll invert that and you have more jobs and less, uh, people in the market, uh, looking for a job. And then, uh. Then if you have to do something right like as a company and the way to solve that to me is by having like internship programs and hiring junior people and you know growing them to Being a place where they can start to you know Do a little bit more of like senior job over time so that that's take time that takes time and not all companies can do it But I think that's one [00:31:00] way the other way to me is you as a junior designer instead of Working in a company up front you get some of the experience by doing your personal Uh, projects, which is something that people already do it, but then now, because you have AI, you can actually like launch it, you can actually, um, have something that people can use and have users in your platform.

So instead of building something that is only conceptual, now you can go and build it, uh, using AI to code for you, for instance.

[00:31:38] Michael Mordak: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Um, great insight. And I, we've got some more questions. I'm going to, I'm going to keep moving through them. Um, this one's a multiple choice just to change things up.

So, uh, this one's going to be kind of more of a scenario here. So what's the best approach for designers to collaborate with engineering teams when working on AI driven products? And here are the options, Koji. Okay. We got option A, [00:32:00] start by deeply understanding the technology's capabilities and designing a user experience that aligns with them.

Or B. Focus on user needs first and challenge the team to develop technology that supports the ideal experience.

[00:32:13] Koji Pereira: Um,

you know, the ideal is be right. Like you want to, uh, Steve Jobs said once, and I think that's really brilliant, which is you start with the user, you start with the problem, and then you work backwards to the technology, right? Uh, reality though, is that sometimes. And, and I'll give the self driving car example again.

You, you, you basically, you are very limited by the technology. And the technology will only give you enough to do a specific task. And then you have to slowly prototype something and build [00:33:00] the design or build the solution while you build the technology. Because if you don't do that, then you're too late.

Um, And that's what Aunt Waymo did, basically, you know, the first Versions of it was were very like rudimentary, very, you know, not reliable. And then over time they started to like use Jenny I to make decisions on the car. They improved the, you know, the. Part internal parts of the car. Um, and then if you take cruise, for instance, they actually started more like with the problem itself, but then they didn't have time to develop the technology.

And that problem was that, uh, they have a huge, huge issue in San Francisco. They have had an accident and they had to stop the operations. So again, I don't think there is. It's hard to say there is like one answer that will fit all, uh, cases. Uh, I tend to say [00:34:00] B is the best, but sometimes you have to be flexible and understand what's the limitations of the technology.

Of

[00:34:09] Michael Mordak: course. Love that. Um, I'm going to jump to, um, when we were prepping for this and kind of chatting about some of the, the main, uh, you know, pain points and challenges that you've been seeing currently, you had raised a couple of things. Um, so I'm going to jump to some of the questions around, around those, and then I'll come back to the chat here.

Um, and one of those things was between You know, balancing the idea of simple design versus complex design. So how are you striking the balance between keeping a product simple and easy enough to use while, you know, adding new features as requested by customers or, or your team as well?

[00:34:47] Koji Pereira: Yeah, no, that's a very good question.

We, we, as Sigma, we, we're building basically a, um, platform for data analytics for [00:35:00] people who are in the, you know, BI space. Or data science space or even people who never play with data to be able to go there Access the data from the warehouse do their own analysis great charts and dashboards share with people Do that arc analysis?

So it's both something very technical But at the same time we want to make sure that anybody can do it and anybody can learn how to do it Um, so it's a big challenge because you want to You One, make sure that thing's still very simple and easy to understand and feels familiar and approachable and, uh, doesn't feel scary.

At the same time, you want to make sure that it's super powerful. If you want to go and learn something specific, let's say you want to learn how to write a sequel, then you can do that. Go and do in our platform. Um, the way I approached this and it was similar to the way we design for Lyft. [00:36:00] Um, because I worked with Lyft business is to do some sort of like unfolding complexity or, um, I would call it like unfolding complexity or gradual disclosure, which is you show something very easy to understand first screen or first page.

Part of it or the first flow and then slowly there is like a secondary link or there is a secondary flow That you go and then there it's basically your second you level two Let's say if you're more advanced then after that, there's another level if you want to go Let's say customize this and then it goes a hundred percent more deep into Specific settings or Let's say there's a highest, even highest level of that, which is just go and use our API.

Um, so to me, this is a way that [00:37:00] I found to be useful and, and works well. If you want to do something for enterprise software that is slowly disclosure. The complexity but it also works for consumer product. So basically you can apply the same principle to build something that is super simple up front.

Let's say with neon we're working with a money transfer flow where we had like A very simple flow on the first screen that you just click and basically have like two taps to send money Or if you want to go a little bit deeper Then you have settings where it can go and then It will take a little bit more steps like four or five steps to to get to the same flow So again, like having those two You know, different paths that you can take.

I think it helps a lot to allow, uh, allow for the more advanced user to take their action, but also not throw a lot of things in your face for most of the users. [00:38:00]

[00:38:01] Michael Mordak: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And it's just, I'm thinking about like our own, like our own product. I mean, ours, ours isn't, isn't exactly related to the software because it's more of like a media field.

But I mean, same thing, you know, you're, you're always wanting to add more and bring more value without making it just too cumbersome and too overwhelming for folks. So a lot of ways that it kind of ties into there. Um, And now when I jump back into the, the chat here, um, we've got a very strategic C level conversation today, but we're going to, uh, go here.

So this one says it's still unusual to have C level or VP role focused on design. So what are your thoughts on this phenomenon? Is it just a matter of company culture? Is it a matter of, uh, communicating the value of design at the strategic level? Um, let's start there and we'll, there's, there's more to it, but we'll start with there.

[00:38:52] Koji Pereira: Got it. Yeah. So it's interesting because in my past role, I was a CDO and now I'm a VP of design here and [00:39:00] it's very different. Um, in a way I like more to be a VP of design because I can focus on design only. And I mean, yeah, I still like work with other teams and I still help them. But, uh, I think the role of a CDO and a C level is way more into the strategic.

Longer time landscape of a company. Um, the problem is, and again, I go, I'll, I'll go back to what I heard from, you know, people like Steve Jobs is that most of the companies, when you go to C level, they're looking at basically spreadsheets of, you know, P& L and, uh, you know, what is our, you know, You know, plan for next year.

It's a lot of financial data. It's a lot of gut feeling decisions in the end of the day. It's a lot of bets. It's a lot of what the [00:40:00] board asked you or you have to talk with the board about X and Y. It's not really in a way to me. It's not really about product anymore. Uh, maybe like a little contrarian this point of view here, but most of the companies are like that.

Now you have a few companies, uh, that, uh, take a little bit of a different approach where. You know, CO and C levels are thinking about the product, but I think it's minority of the companies do that. Um, I probably Apple still do that in, in certain levels, but doesn't do any more as he used to do with Steve jobs.

Um, I know that Brian Chelsky of Airbnb does that, but I know a lot of COs, they. Just don't think about product. They don't have the time to do it. They're looking at numbers, basically. And same with the C level. So for me, I didn't enjoy [00:41:00] that much that part of the job as a C level. Uh, what I care the most is about creating a product that people love and with the power of design.

Um, now again, I don't care about if that role is CDO or VP of design or even director of design. I don't care. Like I just care about what I'm doing. Um, the title doesn't matter to me. So I think the Um, I think the real problem here is not the level or the title The real problem is that design is not giving the space to really make things In a way, you know, it's just that the companies are not giving the space.

Designers are not also carving the space. So I think that's a real problem. Um, now how do we solve this? I think it's a lot of. Push and pull. It's a lot of, I think like [00:42:00] during the interviews is the right time to raise this type of questions. Like what's the role of design? What do you expect from me?

Because again, like I, I don't know, before here, I talk with many companies that they're hiring for VP or even C level. And when I asked them what's the role of design, some, some companies just say like, well, just keep the product going, you know, that's, that's not, it's not. Doesn't look, um, exciting to me.

If you just want to keep the product going, just. You don't need design, just keep it going with whatever, just do project management and engineers and designers just keeping bugs, fixing bugs, that's it, right? Um, now if you want to change a product, if you want to put the product in a different level, I'll be excited about it.

And I don't care about the level. Um, so I think that's what we should try to figure [00:43:00] out when we're interviewing like what kind of What kind of role do we expect in this company? And if you're an IC What? You know, I would ask like what does design do? To improve the product in this company, what, what, what, what we're supposed to do is just execute what we're told, or are we actually trying to build something that people will love and use every day?

Um, most of the time it's just build what they're told.

[00:43:37] Michael Mordak: So a little bit of what you said in there was that a lot of folks in the C suite, you know, and if we're going to speak to the majority of cases, aren't. necessarily working in or on the product. They're more in the, you know, spreadsheets and financial data. So just to tie it into the second part of that question, like, which is, you know, how do you manage the overlaps with CTOs and CPOs, but I think even just to back that up [00:44:00] a little bit more, like, is there a lot of overlap with CTOs and CPOs when they are more, more, you know, financially or spreadsheet focused and you tend to be more like working on and within the product and

[00:44:13] Koji Pereira: Yeah, again, like, I think it really depends on you in your profile.

What do you like and how you can collaborate? I can see, honestly, any role being potentially, but being part of the C suite. Um, now, what does the C suite do? Because, again, most of it is just, Looking at financial data or hiring, firing processes and things like that. Um, any, anyone can collaborate with that.

Then what I would like to see more though, is like C suite thinking about product. Okay, what do we do? What we should do? Why we do this? Why is it important? Most of it, don't do it, right? Like if a C [00:45:00] suite does that, then again, I feel like pretty much any, um, discipline can help with that. Then the question is, do you want to do that?

So again, I, I don't think it's related to design. I think it's more related to how do you think about design? Um, personally, I said, like, I'm a maker. I like design as shaping things and create things that people love. Uh, if there's a space for me as a C level doing that, fine. Um, but if I'm just looking at financial data, then I don't think, personally, I am not, uh, that type of person who'll be enjoying, like, sitting and discussing about, uh, you know, moving the needle three points, two points up and down.

Um, I, I hate to say this because I don't like the guy, but Elon Musk is pretty much doing that. Right? Like I, he's basically saying, [00:46:00] okay, I don't want to be sitting in meetings, looking at financial data. I'd rather be in the floor of the factory and creating the product. Um, you know, Steve Jobs, same thing.

Uh, Again, like most of the, I think, companies, though, they don't run within those playbooks, they run within, I don't know, McKinsey playbook. And then that's a different thing. That's a totally different, um, mindset. Um, and it's more related to, you know, Business administration and that again, like I'm not a big fan.

I just don't want to do that But okay, if you want to do it, that's fine Not judgmental about this But I think what really matters about a product is what you're building not how you look at What the numbers and if it's going up or down.

[00:46:56] Michael Mordak: Well, hopefully we, we start to see more of a trend. I know you mentioned that, that it's the [00:47:00] more kind of the minority of cases of organizations that, that involve the have C suite books, and more involved like that.

And hopefully we, we send, we, you know, we see that trend grow because I think you're right. Like it does, it does. It creates a lot more buy in for folks. It makes people more excited about it because they see leadership doing it. And to Thomas's note, yeah, founder mode. Yeah, which we're seeing, uh, you know, kickoff obviously, or I guess build up.

But, uh, no, that's incredible insight. So, um, I'm going to jump back into some, some of the questions, things we had been talking about during, uh, kind of the, our initial conversations. And, um, one question that I think might be kind of fun to, for you, for you to jump in on is, um, what are some overlooked design details?

I know this is a bit broad, but you can relate it back to some of the products that you've, you've worked on in the past. Some overlooked design details that can make a big impact on user experience. So maybe some kind of low hanging fruit or, or ways of approaching that. [00:48:00]

[00:48:01] Koji Pereira: So, um, wow, that's like a very broad question, but I think your question already answers, which is like care, caring about the details.

I think it matters a lot, right? Like sometimes people will say, Oh, you know, like MVP, let's just do whatever we can do now. So we can easily get something out and see if people like it, but people don't like unfinished things. So it's really like hard to understand how far you want to go with your MVP, how far you want to make it perfect, or you want to polish it.

Um, for instance, I even feel like if you, if you build like a, trying to get an example here, like a calendar, for instance, that you can go and add every one you want to [00:49:00] meet in a specific day or time, they get a notification, and, um, There is a notification for you saying, like, there is an event. You click on it.

There is a Google Map or Apple Map. You click on it and then you have directions. Um, that's one thing. That's, let's say, like, your V2. And then your MVP is basically saying, oh, you can schedule, uh, an event. And that's it. That's nothing else you can do. That's not testing really like what you want in the end like and Probably a lot of people who like the v2 don't won't like the mvp that you're planning to do so it's very hard to um to say that mvp It's really helping you to test your assumption if you're an mvp It's really Half super half baked.

Um So to me Uh, the details [00:50:00] matter a lot. Uh, the, the experience matter a lot in terms of detail. And then the design details, I think some of them are more fit and finish, and they will give you a good feeling of. Okay, how good is this product? How, how careful this company or this team is about building something for me?

Um, and then if you, if you don't have that feeling, then basically it's a deal breaker for you because, personally, Even a website, right? Like, I go to a website, and if I'm trying to buy something, the website looks terrible. I just decided to not buy it, right? Now people are accessing websites that much anymore.

But just to give an example, right? Like, how does the, the fit and finish can sometimes be a deal breaker? And, uh, it's one of the main reasons why people love, again, like, Apple devices. It's because [00:51:00] They think about even the rounded corners to be consistent across devices, which if you think about it, doesn't really quote unquote matter, but for them it matters.

So that gives you a sense of like, okay, what matters for them, it's even more than I matter for me, which means that they really, if I'm buying something from them, I can tell that it's going to be great because they care about things that I don't even notice. Right? So how, how all those things count for your narrative as a company or as a brand?

Um, I think it's up to you, but if you, if you just careless, just go and do it and test it and do a half baked thing, then you're pretty much doing what other companies are doing, which is just creating like not great products. So. To me, you have to establish a [00:52:00] bar. Um, I think design principles will help you.

Um, here at Sigma, we, we build design principles that it's basically setting what is considered to be good design for us, or the things that needs to basically like a bar that we need to always reach before we. Um, launch something. So if you don't have that, and if you're basically just like, okay, no, we're just testing, we're just launching and testing.

Um, I, I don't know, like I, I feel I lived so much that, and, um, what I see is just. products being slowly, uh, you know, decreasing quality.

[00:52:43] Michael Mordak: No, I, yeah, I love that. And, um, I like how you brought up some of those details about like just things that where it's so important to be consistent, uh, because people get used to it and they expect that and they, and they can rely on it.

Um, and it's something that really builds brand, you know, it helps people associate your brand with [00:53:00] that consistency and that quality and they come to expect it. And, um, it really builds up that, that amount of trust, which is so important in the beginning when you're. You know, trying to, to make it stick and make something that's going to stand out, uh, to people.

So building those kind of like those little details, I think, yeah, I really appreciate that, um, way you, you emphasize that. And, um, the, the little points that you, you pulled out there, like, I mean, the rounded corners, for example, like I think that's something that you don't even think about really. It's a good thing to, to like bring to the light because yeah, it's, it's those little details that really stand out.

[00:53:36] Koji Pereira: And again, like I think it's, uh, it's, I believe it's better for business, right? Like if you build a great product that is. Uh, you know, it's just coherent across devices, for instance. Um, some other people might not think is better for business. That's fine. Uh, then the, the, the difference will be, in my opinion, is that you [00:54:00] just be able to tell, like, this is a great product.

This is not a great product. That itself to me is, uh, you know, a goal is just building better. Um, if that's better for business, that's great. And I believe that. But if it's not, then I still think it's worth pursuing for it.

[00:54:21] Michael Mordak: Yeah. No, I agree. Yeah. Brand is, is something that I think doesn't get enough focus, but really, it really is so important.

I mean, one of the issues is that it's just, it gets really difficult to track and, you know, and to measure against that kind of stuff. And so it's hard to build up. That's what I'm saying, right?

[00:54:36] Koji Pereira: It's if it's a principle, um, doesn't necessarily always take you to immediate, like tomorrow I'd be able to measure it and say it's better.

Uh, but you can tell that, you know, certain brands, for instance, they survived so many years. because they really believe in quality. Now, uh, can you tell [00:55:00] that it was a specific, you know, decision that they made in 2001? Not a hundred percent sure, but it's the, the principle that they were able to push them to be able to continuously look for better and better 1 percent every week, whatever.

It's what actually made them, uh, be known. And if there's anything like the, the brand as the value of the brand build over time after that.

[00:55:34] Michael Mordak: Amazing. Yeah. Well, I just want to point out where we're right at the minute left here on the, on the clock. So, uh, I just want to Koji for. for, for spending an hour with us for answering questions.

This was a really great discussion. I really enjoyed it. Some fantastic questions from, from folks in the audience here. Um, Uh, just real quick before we head out, I just posted a link to a feedback form. We, we love feedback, so we can make these events, you know, even better [00:56:00] for, for our attendees and our guests.

And, uh, so if you can take a minute to fill that out, let us know what you thought of the event today. And you can also submit a topic for future events. Um, yeah. As I mentioned a while ago at the beginning, we do these regularly every month. Uh, we are going to be taking a break for December as a lot of folks are going to be out, but we'll resume in the new year.

So check back on our website, theproductmanager. com. Um, and we'll be posting, uh, our next event to the homepage once, uh, registration is live. So thanks folks for attending today. Um, I hope you all have a rest of the good rest of the day to our American friends. Yes. Happy holidays. Enjoy Thanksgiving. And Koji, once again, thanks for your time.

Really appreciate having you here.

[00:56:39] Koji Pereira: Thanks

[00:56:39] Michael Mordak: everyone.