How to Lead People and Build Better Products

[00:00:00] Hannah Clark: We'll get started. Uh, so welcome everyone to the latest panel in our community events series. So really excited to see all of these grow and become such a valuable way for all of us to engage with experts who contribute to the product manager community. So if you made time for, uh, for coming on, join us today, thank you so much for showing up.

For those who don't know me, I'm Hannah Clark. I am the editor of the product manager and the host of the product manager podcast. And today's session, we're going to be focusing on how to lead people and build better products. Really excited for this topic. I think a lot of us are going to get a lot out of it.

Um, and we're going to be speaking with some of the top voices and thought leaders in the space. I'm really excited for you folks to meet them. So I'll introduce each of them. One by one. Um, first we've got Victoria Koo, who's the head of product and design at HiNote, which is a card issuer processor platform.

Victoria, did you want to introduce yourself briefly?

[00:00:57] Victoria Ku: Hi, everyone. Um, yeah, [00:01:00] nice to see everyone on this beautiful Thursday morning. I am formerly from Airbnb, was there for eight years. Launching a whole suite of products, um, and top of the year this year came to Hino, um, continuing my FinTech sort of track record, but happy to answer any questions, especially along the growth of Airbnb or in the payment space.

[00:01:22] Hannah Clark: Awesome. Welcome, Victoria. And we also have Samantha Gonzalez, who's the associate director of product strategy at Dockyard, which is a digital web and mobile app development consultancy.

[00:01:33] Samantha Gonzalez: Hello. Yes, I've been in the agency space for many, many years servicing clients like Facebook, AMC. Uh, but I've also worked with more of the growth stage, uh, startups in that space, in that world.

And then, um, outside of that, I am also an improv teacher, performer, and I also help run a, uh, all women's summer camp that's, uh, happens a couple of times a year too. So I've got a lot of that, that camp counselor, improv [00:02:00] teacher feel to bring to y'all today.

[00:02:03] Hannah Clark: Love it. Welcome. So, uh, welcome to the the session, uh, and george brooks We've got uh, george brooks who's the founder of crema, which is a design and technology consultancy

[00:02:13] George Brooks: Hey y'all i'm just super nervous to be in this room with samantha as she's improv coaching us through this Um, because I i'm terrible at improv.

So no, i'm just kidding um, yeah, i've had the chance for the last 15 years to be Really passionate about building teams that work with teams And so i'm kind of a nerd when it comes to thinking about small cross functional You Product teams and how they get deployed into lots of different environments.

We predominantly now work with big enterprise B2B services organizations, which is a really weird space to be building digital products in, but also really, really amazing. So I'm excited to be here. I'm happy to answer any questions.

[00:02:51] Hannah Clark: Welcome George. Um, so we've got a few guests today and if that's you welcome.

Um, and by guests, I mean, folks who are not yet members of the product manager [00:03:00] community. So this is just a series of monthly sessions that we do for the product manager that we hold for our members and we also open up to non members. Um, so you can kind of get introduced to our forum and learn from some of our community members.

Um, we also have a bunch of members only events. We have a collection of templates and resources to help you wrangle on your products. And we've got a really vibrant Slack community. So if you're interested in learning more about joining, uh, you can learn more at the product manager. com slash membership.

Okay. Um, so just to get y'all, uh, oriented in before we kind of get started with the discussion, we pulled the community to find out what our challenges are when it comes to managing people and teams. And the first thing that was mentioned was simply just inexperienced managing people in a company setting.

So we're going to kick off with that. Um, so I'd love to hear from each of you, but I'd like to start with Victoria. So Victoria, where did you practice or did you experience your greatest breakthrough as a people leader? And what does that look like in practice right now?

[00:03:58] Victoria Ku: Definitely. [00:04:00] I would say like Airbnb was a very formulative time for me.

Um, eight years is no joke. It's just. Especially in a hyper growth environment where you start with like 500 people and you end at 7, 000. Um, so a lot of my experience was from Airbnb and like the biggest breakthrough, um, from all those years was the concept of energy management, which I saw was not really something that people were taking time to think about.

Time management, of course, right? Like calendar defense, managing your time, being productive. That's very normal. But in order to survive in these sometimes like really toxic environments or like super super, um, super high growth, you know, meaning like a lot of things are changing, um, energy management is key.

And so what I've started to realize as a leader is like, how do you ensure longevity from your team? And how do you ensure that they also trust that you have their best interest at heart? You have to consider the environments in which, um, people derive energy. So. If it's a high growth, some people love high growth environments.

Previously, Hannah, you and I have talked about war rooms, right? Some people love [00:05:00] that. And so it's important for you to put people in those environments and some people love to be strategists like in the shadows, just thinking about the right strategy and like they love just seeing something play out even though they planned it in advance and they were not the ones carrying it through.

That's okay, too. It's really opening up the door. Those environments for people to shine. So I summarize all of that as energy management as something that like, we don't really talk about in the industry, but it's, it's pretty key.

[00:05:26] Hannah Clark: Yeah, I would really agree with that. Um, did we, uh, did anyone want to respond to that or build on that concept?

[00:05:36] George Brooks: Yeah. I mean, I think I would second that we talked about a lot about capacity. So maybe capacity is kind of in that same area of energy management. It's the question of. Not everyone has the same type of capacity or the same way that they process things. My business partner and I are almost polar opposites, right?

I am always thinking on my feet. I just want to have a conversation. I'm happy to like press into things right now to whiteboard it to To solve the problem as we speak because most of [00:06:00] my thoughts are outside of my head not inside my head and he on the other hand needs 24 hours to process every new idea and it's it's good because Ultimately the next day we come back And I am now learn how to work with him.

And this is true of now the rest of the team is how to work with folks and going, okay, you're going to need some time to process this for this to soak in. But ultimately you might have some really amazing insights if we just give it that time. And now that is hard because you don't always have the time.

You don't always have that, um, actual organizational capacity, but if you are allowed to work on people's different capacity management, so they can say, Hey, how is this going to be something you can respond to? Cause ultimately they may have great ideas, but it's hard to get those out. Um, if you don't give them the time, whereas other folks will go, I need to, I need to brainstorm and jam on this as much as you'll let me right now.

Um, and then just recognizing each person's going to be different. We're all the same.

[00:06:56] Samantha Gonzalez: I love that, George. I do a similar exercise with every [00:07:00] project I start because I sometimes will have new teams every six months or a year, which is really, really hard to start with a bunch of new people who have not worked together or maybe worked together previously and not and, you know, had some friction.

So it's really important for me to establish that psychological safety immediately to say, I'm hearing you tell me about your working styles. You know, what are what are you a morning person, right? Or how do you like to meet and collaborate? Especially we're a totally remote team. So. So that, that kind of, uh, connection and trust building is even, is even harder to do sometimes.

And I, it's hard to read people. It's hard to, you know, how do I read into Slack messages or what people are saying in meetings? So, um, so I like to establish that with a exercise that I had gathered from Frog Design years ago called a steam, uh, team startup exercise, which I'm happy to share, uh, after this.

[00:07:48] Hannah Clark: Thanks, Samantha. Yeah, I'd love to hear that. Um, so we'll move quite along just because we've got, uh, not a whole lot of time and lots to cover. Um, I'd like to talk a little bit about building relationships. So another challenge our members have come up against is getting to the point of being able to [00:08:00] lead without authority.

Um, so as PMs, we're, um, often aren't on the leadership team, we aren't in the C suite. George, when we spoke earlier, you had some really great insight into this topic. So what have you done to establish a relationship with your people so that they'll do this, um, so they'll do things to help the product even when they don't have to?

[00:08:18] George Brooks: Yeah, we talk a lot about this idea of humble confidence. Um, and it's actually a paradox, right? Is the idea of you can come into a space and be humble, humble enough to say, I don't know everything I'm willing to learn. I need to have better understanding of the context of the situation of the feature of the product that we're building, the user that might be participating in this.

But also I'm confident enough that I'm going to take on the challenge. I'm going to run with it. And that's what, when we're hiring, that's one of the things that the primary things we're looking for. We know skills can be trained. We know that, um, folks can learn new tools, new processes, but ultimately I'm looking for that person that's going to be humbling, confident.

And that was, that was really important for us is how do we train people to say, no, I want to invite you into a space. [00:09:00] Where you're allowed to, to have the ability to not have to know everything, but also I'm going to challenge you to kind of step up. We, we've, you can often read online that people will say, man, crim is a place where.

Uh, you're given a lot of autonomy, which is a lot of people like, man, I wish I had more autonomy, but ultimately autonomy is, can be really scary. It can be a place where you go. I need, I need direction. I need more context. I mean, more understanding. And so we're always trying to give them space where they can, you know, move through that and go, I'm willing to say I want to learn and I can ask questions and I can seek insight, but also, hey, let me run with it, you know, just let me go and let me see where I can go with this.

And I think that's been a big challenge for me, though, as a leader, trying to instill that into folks. It is both me being comfortable letting go, giving them autonomy, and letting them run with it. But also, um, understanding that I have to give context and that we have to find space to, [00:10:00] to allow people to, to learn as quickly as possible.

[00:10:07] Hannah Clark: Samantha, did you want to chime in on this?

[00:10:10] Samantha Gonzalez: Yes, I used to have this saying, um, especially when I was a project manager and I don't know how many people, uh, made the transition from project management into product. Uh, but I used to have the saying that I came up with that said, like, I'm not a middleman.

I'm like, I'm an elected official, um, because I would used to be such a yes person to clients, right? Uh, I thought that my job was to make clients happy and that is not my job. It's my job to have a really good, you know, working relationship with them. Um, but my job is really based on the success of what we're building and that, and then the way that we build it.

Um, so I started to realize that I needed to be, as I, you know, got into product, like, wow, I have a lot more, uh, uh, value that I can bring to this, not, I get project managers are really critical and super important and not to, uh, not to downplay their role, but, [00:11:00] I need to be the voice of engineering and the voice of design and the voice of the user and the voice of my client to what they're asking for for my team.

So that was a lot to balance at once, especially as somebody who is now, you know, an individual contributor basically. Um, so I learned to, you know, slowly kind of like, how do I keep, uh, keep my stances, know where to, you know, set some boundaries, uh, with folks, and then also keep our eyes on the North star.

Everybody is focused on what, where, where are we going towards? So, um, with that in mind, I need to, you know, make sure that everybody is giving a little bit in that space. And with that, it's working with people individually, but then also as large groups as how we collaborate. And that's where I bring in a lot of, you know, exercises and things like that to get people working together better.

[00:11:47] Hannah Clark: Awesome. Victoria, any thoughts?

[00:11:49] Victoria Ku: Yeah, I would like to just jump in and say, tactically, the way that I've historically handled these situations, especially when there hasn't been a lot of time is, um, I pointed things back towards the [00:12:00] mission, right? Like that's just the single handedly, like fastest way to get people aligned.

Why are we doing this? Well, this is how we accomplish our mission. All right. This is how we accomplish our North star and let the tactical trickle down from there. But the fine, the part that I find people forgetting a little bit is like, why now? Right? And these are the two questions that I have to answer, like, just before we all open our mouths and start thinking about how to execute.

And so with these, like, if you answer these two, like, in general, people will get aligned. But it is, it is hard. It's hard to remember that, like, when things are tense and things are stressed and people are like, I've got a hundred other things to do. I have a bunch of other incentives that are, like, you know, coming at me.

Why do we have to do this? And why now? Right? Those are the single two most important questions to answer.

[00:12:43] Hannah Clark: Yeah, I really like that very prescriptive method. Before we move on, I just want to remind everyone that we are going to be answering questions in the last 15 minutes of the presentation. So if you have anything that's on your mind, feel free to pop it in the chat as we go.

Yeah, we'd love to answer all of your curiosities later on. [00:13:00] So we'll move on to mistakes to avoid. So falling on the thread of PMs not having authority or kind of managing in that And a liminal space. One member from the community brought up the trap of overcompensating for this, uh, and behaving like we're the CEO of the product, which, you know, it's, it's sort of a trope, the idea of being the CEO of product as a PM.

Uh, so George, this is kind of an interesting one for you because you, you actually are the CEO. Um, but I also, I also think it kind of gives you a unique perspective into how we can recognize this in ourselves and what are some of the pitfalls that we can avoid when leading people. Um, yeah,

[00:13:33] George Brooks: Yeah, I, I think I mentioned this when we approached for this.

I don't love the title of CEO because I think that it's, um, it brings with it a lot of connotation for different folks, right? So some people are going to have had a really good relationship with the CEO that they really were inspired by, that they understood that really led a company well, and others have had really terrible relationships with CEOs that were, um, ultimately, um, the bottleneck of their organizations.

And I tell this to a lot of folks that, um, [00:14:00] most. bottlenecks inside of organizations is the leaders, right? Because they're going, Hey, I'm the smartest person in the room, quote unquote. And I want you all to make sure that everything goes through me first before any real decisions are made. And ultimately that's, that's not a healthy way to run a company, but it's often a way that people fall back on doing it.

The thing I had to learn personally was that my words have weight. And whether you are actually the CEO or you're acting in a role that is a leadership voice in a group of people is understanding that your words have weight. So if you're someone like me that, like I mentioned before, processes all their words outside of their head and not inside their head, suddenly all the words that you're saying Everyone else is trying to figure out what to do with them.

And the thing for me was that I didn't realize that as I was brainstorming, literally, I was just brainstorming out saying, I've got this idea. What about this? What if we tried it this way? What about the, you know, this approach that what I didn't realize was the folks [00:15:00] around me were going. Oh my gosh, George just threw out 300 mandates like requirements.

We have to go figure out how to execute on all the things that George has said. My, it wasn't my intention. My intention was I'm going to put this all on the table and let's mix it up and figure out what to do with it. I've since learned that I need to filter that a bit or to set context. Hey, y'all, I'm going to put all these things on the table so that we have material to work with so that we can all jam on this together.

I'm not expecting all these things to be done. I want us to come back to a prioritized decision of what we're going to do leaving this meeting, et cetera, et cetera. But I had to learn to give that context. Otherwise, What I didn't realize is that I was causing major burnout for the people around me because what was doing was putting on them like Victoria said, I've got all these other things to do yet.

The CEO just said all these words. I think I probably need to go execute on those. How do I add that to what I'm working on now? And I don't have the capacity to do that. And again, wasn't my [00:16:00] intent. But now learning as my role shaped into more of a key leader inside my organization, of course, and the leader inside any group that I was influencing that I unintentionally or I love multipliers book talks about being an accidental diminisher.

Right. I accidentally started to create real burnout around me and had to go back and really do some work to fix that.

[00:16:26] Hannah Clark: It's really insightful. Uh, Samantha, did you want to jump in?

[00:16:31] Samantha Gonzalez: Yeah. I probably had called myself the mom of the product previously before, uh, as, as you can tell from probably my experience, I'm a deep and leading with empathy. Um, but I had Since learned that there's a difference between leading with empathy and maybe, um, uh, pushing, uh, pushing folks in a direction that they necessarily don't need to go down.

I have interviewed around a hundred mental health professionals for a podcast project that I had with my friend a couple of years ago, and I am not a mental health [00:17:00] professional. It really took a while, a long time to start to realize that because I would really want to take care of everybody very, very individually on my team.

But there's a difference between understanding their goals and working styles and everything that we had just talked about, and then getting very deep into it. And, uh, you know, me even crossing into some personal boundaries and I cannot diagnose people. I cannot treat people and it took me a long time to start to realize that that I can't I need to allow people to be where they are and I cannot necessarily Fix things that are not are not driving with how I'm working or how the other team is working.

So it really taught me how to deal with, um, some difficult, you know, personalities or even just realizing that people are human, um, and just kind of letting letting them, um, deal with situations or out of work context as they need to, um, and just taking a step back and not taking things as personally and not taking on that personal responsibility of, of, of, you know, ensuring that I am that self care advocate for people.

Um, I can promote those things, but [00:18:00] I cannot force people into them. So I'm just realizing again, I am not, I am not the mom of everyone, nor caretaker. Um, so separating myself in that way was very helpful.

[00:18:10] Hannah Clark: Yeah, I think that's still a very compassionate approach, even if it's, you know, it's not as active.

It's compassionate for you and for the company as well.

[00:18:16] Samantha Gonzalez: It is. It's more compassionate for me. It's taking care of myself too. That was the, that was the critical part as well.

[00:18:22] Hannah Clark: Sure. Uh, Victoria?

[00:18:24] Victoria Ku: Yeah. So I think like to tag on to what George and Samantha said, um, the being a CEO of the product, um, is, is one way to look at it as a product manager.

My mentor used to say, yeah, you're the CEO, but you're also the janitor. You're also the mailman. You're also like, you know, right. So, and that gave me the understanding that, like, being the leader of a product and making decisions on behalf of a team, like, there are, there are probably two ways, like two career tracks, if you will.

One is in sales, right, where you sell the product. But another way is also in knowing the product so well. That people are giving you that authority because nobody else knows the product in the space as well as you [00:19:00] do. And so a pitfall that I see, um, from like newcomers in the product management space is that they try to make a strategic decision without truly understanding, like, the market, The product, the engineering, like the tech stack, right?

And then engineering is like, wait, but then how does this work? And they're like, oh, hold on, let me go check that out. And so the way that you combat this is just by, by high competency, as we all know. But it's, it's easy to say, and it's really hard to execute on, but really trying to take the time to look at all sides and doing your due diligence on the product allows you to also, like, also receive that authority from your team and like prove it out that you know what's going on and how to make those decisions in the future.

[00:19:41] Hannah Clark: Really good point. Um, we're going to move on to our second section now, which I'm really excited for. Uh, and this is more for PMs in transition. Um, so we're going to talk about a few key transitional moments that PMs commonly face in their roles and how we can adapt our approach, uh, to become leaders or to become better leaders.

Uh, and the first one we're going to talk [00:20:00] about is, um, relevant to those working in remote teams. So, um, and this is one that we're kind of in the middle of right now, which is the shift to remote and hybrid work, which, I think most of us are now working remotely or in a hybrid, uh, situation. And now that it's been a few years, it's safe to say that a lot of companies are still struggling with this transition.

Um, some folks may have kind of got a handle on it. Some folks are really pushing for that office. Even the idea of doing this hybrid thing is kind of complicated on its own. Um, so Victoria, your team is fully remote, so I'd love to hear how this has affected the way that you lead. Um, and I'd love to hear some practical ways that you're doing that.

[00:20:35] Victoria Ku: Definitely. Um, I would say that, like, everything that we've, um, executed on in the, in the work, like, in the live person environment has shifted, um, specifically, like, your, your brain is still processing through a screen all of the different, like, micro movements of the person that you're talking to, except you're not getting any signals back, and so that creates a lot of exhaustion, right?

And so, uh, Now, with the remote environment, I do [00:21:00] have to be crystal clear about like, what is the direction and what are the expectations of this project, whereas before I could probably rely more on my relationship with that person, like just knowing that we were on the same page, knowing that they could come talk to me at my desk or in the meeting, they can just reach out and say, I don't, I don't get this.

Like, what do you want here? All of that has been kind of like thrown out and now we have to be crystal clear from the beginning in order to move on from like stage one of a project. And I do find that that has been different from like an in person work environment.

[00:21:34] Hannah Clark: And before we move on to the next question, George or Samantha, did you have anything that you wanted to add on to that?

[00:21:43] George Brooks: I'll just say I'm terrible at this y'all. I mean, I know we're supposed to be experts in this, the whole hybrid remote. Um, Figuring out how to do that well, I think, Victoria, what you pointed out is absolutely right. You have to be so much more specific. And for me, I [00:22:00] mean, since I've been 12 years old, I said I want to be surrounded, physically surrounded, by creative people doing creative things.

Right. And so for me, it was a huge challenge squarely in COVID during that time where we're, we're, we're a hundred percent remote. We are hybrid now, but even our team, it's like maybe less than a dozen people even come into the office. And those aren't always the people that I'm working with. So most of the folks that I'm interacting with are in this context and I still struggle.

So I think that is still something the world or even myself is trying to figure out how to do that. Well. Um, and to figure out what's most human, um, 'cause ultimately we're trying to be, we're in the business of people, right? We're in the business of working as people together to serve other people. And so how do we do that well, um, in this new context?

And, and new is almost not fair to say anymore. It's not a new context anymore. It's been, it's worth almost four or five years into it, , and I'm still don't know that I have it figured out. So just to, to name it a little bit sometimes. You know, it's a long process to be working [00:23:00] through that.

[00:23:01] Hannah Clark: It's very nuanced.

There's a

[00:23:03] Samantha Gonzalez: really great book called, uh, The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker, um, and it's a, it's really fantastic if anyone, um, has not heard of it. I found it a couple of years ago at a facilitator summit here in Austin, Texas, where I'm at, so if anyone else is in Austin, And, uh, she speaks around a lot of different things as far as like setting, setting the mood and, and how do you really set for gatherings, not just in work, but also in life.

And it like kind of changed how I thought about even just personal gatherings and what experiences do I want to curate for people? Um, but she really gets, there's a really great quote around like specific, uh, specificity gives people the purpose. Um, and kind of what, you know, to Victoria said, uh, uh, Um, and I think that's a really important point around just like being very, very specific around what are, what are we doing?

Why are we here? Um, you know, obviously it's, it starts from a clear agenda, but also as George was saying too, but the shared understanding of what the words mean and what are, what are we really doing here? Um, so how do you, you know, how do you do that in a [00:24:00] way that is warm, but also direct and gets people involved in thinking about everyone else who, you know, who is there.

So, uh, that's a really great one too, if anyone is looking for a resource.

[00:24:11] Victoria Ku: I would just add on that, like, the specificity part is key. Like, the fact that we have turned into this new environment does a lot for an opportunity for people who communicate specifically. Um, it creates a huge opportunity for them because historically, again, you've kind of relied on a relationship.

Or you've relied on, like, sales skills to allow people to trust in you to execute. Well, now with this remote environment, those who are very keen on, like, the details and execution and able to create a plan that everyone knows exactly how to execute on, it's a huge opportunity for those folks. So I would say, like, it's not all a bad thing, right?

It's, these are all skills we can learn. So, um, yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's optimistic.

[00:24:53] Hannah Clark: Absolutely. Yeah. And for anyone who missed it, um, Michael just threw a link to, uh, Our art of gathering [00:25:00] in the chat there. So if anyone wants to check it out, feel free. Um, so we'll move on. Um, there's another movement. Uh, sorry, another moment that I'd like to touch on.

Um, that, you know, nobody is excited for this moment, but it's going to happen. So let's talk about it. Um, so in the wake of negative news, uh, maybe it's like a launch that went sideways or declining product performance. Our expertise as a PM may be called into question. So Samantha, you brought up on a pre call that you experienced something along this thread recently when you conducted discovery with a client only for them to say no and go a completely different route.

Um, so when we find ourselves in these situations, how do you make adjustments to the way you lead your team or do damage control?

[00:25:38] Samantha Gonzalez: So, yes, I, I had a client who I was on site with in New York doing a really great discovery for a couple of days. We gave them this, you know, Fantastic deck and blew them out of the water. It was the most, but it was the best deck, best deck ever. Right. Um, but they decided to go a different way, but not only that, they kind of ghosted me along the process.

And I, it was really, really tough news. George [00:26:00] knows this as far as agency life goes, but, uh, but yeah, so I really, you know, I, and then I had to then again, like have my team still feel the confidence in me and me feel confident in myself, so it really helped me. One, build up some more of that resiliency muscle, right, like staying grounded in what I can control, staying curious about maybe why they went a different way, what I could have seen before to let me know that, that maybe this relationship wouldn't continue on, um, again, really identifying what I control and then, um, what I can take with me.

And a big lesson that I've learned from that is around the, you know, art of directness and that, or do that radical candor. Right, that we all try to practice so much. Um, it was really hurtful for me personally to feel like these folks had, you know, turn, turn their backs on me in, in a time when we had, you know, connected personally.

Um, and so I had said, you know, said, okay, how can I then now practice this muscle, um, if, to give people more direct feedback that I, I didn't get, right. Um, so how do I, you [00:27:00] know, Use what, um, I was wanting and then now give that to my team and then to, you know, again, how, how I lead. So it was good. I, I've shared those learnings with my team as well.

So I think people seeing the inner workings of how your processing feedback is really important as well. Um, people see how, how are you going to take this and now move on from it. Um, and not only, you know, survive, but grow and thrive from it too. So I think it's good for people to see exactly the lessons you're learning along the way.

And then, you know, how are they processing it?

[00:27:31] Hannah Clark: Yeah, I agree. I think that's really important for building trust and kind of like maintaining like you're a human too, you know, you're also always in training. Uh, Victoria, I think he also had, Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to get you out there. Um, Victoria, I think he has some thoughts on this as well.

[00:27:45] Victoria Ku: Yeah. Um, so much of being a PM is actually iterating. Um, and, and that's like the less sexy thing that we talk about. You know, at Airbnb, I had like multi, multi million, you know, community members, like bearing down on a product like Magical Trips that I [00:28:00] launched. And then during the pandemic, I When all the revenue was draining, um, because of, you know, COVID, um, I've also had launches where it's been crickets and I'm like, I have no feedback.

How do I move forward? And I would argue that it is these, the second scenario that really makes or break the PM. So I'll go into that one. Um, When, when, when there are crickets and you're not getting feedback, right, that is why you go back to your strategy, right? As a PM, you look at the landscape, you look at all the potential levers that you have to move, you do the research to analyze which lever is like most, um, what's the highest ROI to moving that lever?

Um, and so, yeah. In, in a very similar sense, I moved a few levers and payments and like nothing really happened and there wasn't a lot of traction or wasn't a lot of like, um, data to show me that I was heading in the right direction. And so that's when I would go back into my strategy and say, okay, clearly this one didn't work.

Now let's move this lever. Let's see if the ROI is higher here. Um, and that is actually what makes a PM, not these like huge launches and what you, you know, it's really sexy. It's really [00:29:00] awesome to talk about, but actually like with your experience. Um, You know, it's, it's understanding, like, here's the landscape that I've planned out, and, like, if this doesn't work, here's what I would fall back on, and here's that really critical list of priorities that I've decided I'm gonna go down if things don't go my way.

And that's how you learn over time.

[00:29:17] Samantha Gonzalez: Victoria, I love that. I also use the, uh, analogy that the scientific method is to actually disprove, um, versus prove. It's to actually disprove this, this, this hypothesis more than anything. So it's great you disproved that. Absolutely.

[00:29:32] Victoria Ku: Yeah, we, at Irving, we would say, like, experiments are expensive, right?

You should always be learning, regardless of whether or not it goes your way.

[00:29:42] Hannah Clark: That way of thinking. Um, so the last moment I'll bring up that all of us are going to experience is working with a new team or joining a new company and especially when we're being installed as a leader when we don't really know anyone.

Um, so George, you've shared your thoughts on this, but what can we do in the first 30, days with a new team to build influence and [00:30:00] be seen as a leader while avoiding the pitfalls that we mentioned earlier on?

[00:30:04] George Brooks: Yeah, I mean, there's there's a lots of tactical ways to onboard a team and get a team aligned. A couple things that come to mind for me.

One is just to set the expectations of how things are actually probably going to go right. So first is that, um, we're in the in the services space or in the agency space. One thing that we talk about is that we're literally going through like an M and a every time we start to work with a new client.

And if anybody's been through an M and Hey, I It's messy, right? It's a bunch of people that work different ways that have different approaches, different contexts, different beliefs in how they see the world. Ultimately being forced together to then go try to do something. Uh, of a shared purpose and value, right?

So going back to the phrase conversation around, like, as long as we know the mission and know where we're going, we can be rowing in the same direction. But the challenge with that is you might have that honeymoon period where you go, wow, this is incredible. We're all together now. We're going to take over the world.

But then you find that actually it's the J curve, just like everything else [00:31:00] is that it's that iteration of, nope, we're going to go through the trough of despair first, where we all realize. I don't like you, and I don't like the way you work, and I don't like how you make decisions, and I don't like the tone of your voice or the makeup you wear.

I mean, like, it can be anything. It just becomes petty at a certain point, but it's just because we're, we haven't yet decided that this is how we're going to go through hard things together. So what I do is I try to say, hey y'all, there's going to be a trough of despair. Just be ready for it. If it doesn't happen, then yay, but ultimately it usually does happen.

And so let's just get ready for when it happens. Now, when it does, how do we go back to a shared understanding of what is truth for us and what is direction for us and how we work together and one of those assets that we try to create both for ourselves internally, I do this with my leadership team, as well as when we do it with clients is creating charters.

Now, lots of different people will can't call them lots of different things, but I think a charter is a really great resource, which is just to say. Write down your your shared [00:32:00] understanding of what each person on the team's responsibility is, how they're going to participate in the initiative or the thing that we're doing right now, and then give it a time box right to say, We're going to review this.

This isn't going to be something that we all did in a kickoff session. And we're like, Yay, it's all great. And then ultimately, you get six months down the road, and you're like, everything's falling apart. No, it's something where you say, We're going to check back in on this in 30 6090 days. Now, you can adjust the charter, just like we talked about iterations, you can actually change saying, you know what, actually, what we found is either there's somebody's missing on the team, we need to bring another person in, or possibly that person really wasn't a great fit, we need to find a different place for them, or this person needs to step up, and we need to see more from them, so let's describe more what we expect, so that can iterate, a charter can iterate, But ultimately it's something it is an asset that you could come back.

You've you've all written down. You've shared and kind of approved between each other. Yes, I agree. This is the way I plan to work with you. This [00:33:00] is the way I plan to participate on the team and then we hold ourselves accountable to that when it does or doesn't go that go well because ultimately we're humans, right?

We forget that we even wrote those things down or we we had a diffusion of responsibility where we thought someone else is going to do it. And so those are just ways to come back to that, especially in the hard times when you have in that trough of despair, but sometimes it can be just in good times and you go, I'm doing a retro right now and we really need to say.

Are we still living out our values? Are we still living out those shared understanding of the way that we said we were going to work together?

[00:33:32] Victoria Ku: I'll add, I'll add one thing. And I love that George has brought up the team charter, especially as a CEO. It's actually not super common sometimes. And so the fact that you're bringing it up is a huge value add because But like you as a PM could be generating a charter sometimes like every six months because the org has like re org'd again and that's very normal and like sometimes people don't even know to look for a charter because they've never had one written to them.

So even if the feedback isn't super high, right? Even people are like, Oh, I didn't [00:34:00] even know this existed or I didn't even know that like someone could do this. The fact that like you have something to point to and to look at and react to is actually incredibly valuable and more people should do it in the industry.

[00:34:16] Hannah Clark: So before we move on to our last section here, um, which is going to be on specialty areas, uh, I just want to give everybody, uh, just under 10 minute warning that we're going to be starting, uh, our Q& A after this section. So if you have any questions that have been on your mind or you're kind of trying to wrap your head around, you got about 10 minutes to leave them in the chat and we can get started on those, uh, very shortly.

Um, so moving right along. So one thing I do find fascinating about this discussion is how leading people has had such a huge impact on all of your careers individually and in so such different ways, but your experience and approaches are so diverse are so different. So I want to take a second to lean into some of the differences in each of your individual experience before we get to the Q and a.

And I'm going to start with Victoria. So Victoria, you were at Airbnb during a period of massive growth. [00:35:00] Um, what are some of the major lessons that you learned as the company scaled rapidly and were there any uncomfortable truths that you uncovered about leadership that people don't really like to talk about?

[00:35:10] Victoria Ku: Yeah, so I think like the, the most, um, the biggest lesson for me was understanding, um, what, like what skill sets are you bringing to the table? Typically when you hire from a startup phase, you want the generalist rounded skill set. You want someone who comes in, wears multiple hats, can get everything done.

It doesn't have to be perfect, but just gets it done. Later on, you want someone who's a specialist, right? Does this one thing critically well, you know, especially when regulators are bearing down on you, for example. And so every time when I start with a team, when I start with a newcomer on my team, I always ask them, are you pirate or are you navy?

Or there's like different, there's different frameworks here. Are you cavemen? Are you townspeople? And really what it is, is like, where, you know, again, goes back to where do you derive your energy? Do you love, like, going in and just like, Creating chaos, like, creating order out of chaos, um, [00:36:00] or do you love, like, maintaining something that has already been built and you are there to step wise make it even better, but you have that, like, step wise function, you have that time.

And people, like, when you create frameworks like that, people will answer honestly, and that's how you know, like, where to plug them in. So that they have the greatest longevity at the company. Um, they're able to handle all of the, the chaos when it inevitably comes their way. Because, um, you've given them that space and created that, um, emotional moat for them to do their best jobs.

Right? Create their best careers. And the uncomfortable truth here is that, like, this also applies to leadership. You know? Like, and you don't always see it because, um, you know, like, real talk. Right? Like hiring leaders is really hard for companies, like they spend enormous amounts of money to find that right person.

Then there's a bunch of like media exposure, like there's a bunch of, you know, like, look at, look at this person and they're here to stay and they usually stay like, you know, four to eight years. And you're, it's assumed that these leaders know how to handle every single situation. But [00:37:00] it's not always the case.

Leaders, just like ICs, have skills that they lean into during certain phases of the company, but it is critical for them to actually be even more adaptable, right, to be able to weather the storm on behalf of all of us and point us in the right direction to go. And that part is rare. So sometimes you will, you know, like a company looks fantastic and inside there's a bunch of inner turmoil.

It's very normal. It's because leaders also have specialty environments that they do best in. And in those situations, it's best for leaders to kind of lean into having a really talented team and delegating to the people that they know can handle these environments.

[00:37:41] Hannah Clark: So emotionally intelligent. I love that approach.

So Sam, you've used practices and tactics that you've learned from taking improv classes. I'm going to do a little call back to the improv at the beginning of the session. Um, so you've used improv, uh, influenced, uh, sessions to help build highly motivated collaborative teams. So can [00:38:00] you share some of the examples of how you've implemented this practice and what kinds of outcomes it's had?

[00:38:07] Samantha Gonzalez: So I probably, my team is probably sick of all the exercises and things like that that I do, but I insist on them because they're really, they're really important as far as not just like mood setters and getting people relaxed, but again, building, uh, building connection and trust on a level that's like low risk.

Like there's nothing you can bring to improv. You can bring something to stand up to other, to theater, to other modes, you know, to, to so many other things, right. Um, you can have things prepared. Improv is best when you are authentic. And listening and present and those are the qualities that I want with people that I'm collaborating with as well.

So that's why I think those exercises are even, even though they're, they're silly, they're great. Cause I want people to be looking stupid right off the bat so that when they come in, they fee, they, you know, they feel like they're, uh, they can trust the people that they're with. Cause we've already looked silly together.[00:39:00]

So there's like the no bad ideas and brainstorming. Right. Um, and I've done this with clients too. I've done this in client meetings. When we're ahead of like ideation sessions, or even if we're going to maybe talk about a tough topic together, um, and a client comes in, you know, a little bit abrasive, right?

Because everybody is also coming into a meeting with a lot of different context in, you know? You just had a rough drop off with your kid at daycare. You just had a really tough one on one with your manager. You're really bummed about something right now. Or you're really excited, you just, you know, You know, something great happened in your life, right?

Everyone's coming at different energy levels, different context. This helps us level set together and be ready to ready to work, right? So I think of it as almost the pre work that we need in order to have a really productive and collaborative session. And it gets also all the voices in the room speaking too, which is great.

And not always happens when you know, you're with a lot of folks and especially in a remote environment. So I think they're really critical. They've helped diffuse some situations before with some, you [00:40:00] know, angry clients or people coming in with, you know, not a lot of energy, even just that, even just like a neutral energy, like, okay, I can do that.

I can do something with that. So I found it really, really helpful in, you know, every single meeting and I'm happy to give some exercises for folks. Uh,

[00:40:17] Hannah Clark: you know that I'm a big fan of the improv approach. It's, it's, I couldn't agree more. I think that it's so important for folks to be comfortable, uh, and be okay with the idea of saying things that aren't necessarily the smartest thing ever, you know, being able to just be.

fluid with how you suggest ideas. Well, yeah,

[00:40:34] Samantha Gonzalez: exactly. And the people that try the hardest are actually the people that are not, that it's not as great. I just, I want something that's like truthful to you. And those are surprisingly the funniest unquote unquote, uh, things that, you know, we hear out of people.

[00:40:48] Hannah Clark: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so George with Crema, you've got a very unique skill set as someone who leads a team whose job it is to lead other teams in many contexts. Um, so when it comes to managing external teams versus your own team, how does your [00:41:00] approach differ and where does it overlap?

[00:41:03] George Brooks: Yeah, I mean, I think we could, we all come back to this.

This level of empathy and trust that we're trying to build between each other and our teams Um, it is a little bit different with the client Um vendor relationship if you want to call it that we try to call it partner relationship But of course we treat it different ways different with different clients But ultimately I think when i'm thinking about my internal team One of the things that I'm trying to get them to believe in is our mission and our mission.

The challenge with that is they also have to believe a little bit in the client's mission and vision. So there is a bit of a hybrid approach to, they have a dual responsibility to not only see what Prima is trying to do, which is to use design technology and culture to ultimately help individuals and organizations thrive, right?

I want them to be thinking about how does the individual. And our client side thrive and how does that help the organization thrive? So they need to be tuning themselves to see those things. But one of the things that I always say when we onboard or bring a new person into the company is that you're here for a reason, [00:42:00] right?

I don't, I don't know exactly how that'll shape out, but I want you to feel like you have a purpose here that you can contribute here, that you can actually bring value here and that you can make crema better. Because if you're just here to like move tickets through, there's lots, honestly, there's lots of cheaper way that I can just get ticket movers.

In the world, right? But if I want true collaborators, I want someone who's going to be thinking about how do I make crema better? And that gets me excited because of course, this is something that I've spent the last 15, 16 years of my life, like building from the ground up. And so I think, man, if it can get better than it already is, that's exciting.

Um, so I just want to motivate people to think like they can have a true impact towards the purpose of who crema is. Now, when it comes to then, how do we connect that to the way that we interact with our clients? A lot of our clients are trying to make a name for themselves. So I will say one of three things, and I don't exactly say this to the clients, but we have three jobs we have, we are trying to help other companies either make money, maybe new lines of revenue or new ways [00:43:00] to bring in additional revenue to their company, save money.

So do things more efficiently or with less time or with less air, or we're trying to get somebody a promotion or a race, right? Ultimately we want that person to be the hero. So when we think about how do we. Really set up an environment, a relationship where that person can feel like, Oh, really? I, I have something of value to bring to my own company.

I'm taking a risk by hiring Prima, bringing them in, being a voice. It's going to facilitate this work that we're doing. That is a risk for them, right? So oftentimes they're scared. They're afraid that this might not work out and we're going to spend all this money and time and effort. And this is true of any team that we're working on, whether it's an in house or out of house.

But ultimately, how do you get them to feel that humble confidence again, where they can say, Hey, you don't have to have it all figured out. That's why you brought us in and also be confident enough that you brought us in, right? We're going to do this together and we're going to create something great together.

If we allow ourselves to iterate, if we allow ourselves to make mistakes, if we allow ourselves to fix through the [00:44:00] trough of despair. And ultimately, if we find I love read Hoffman's definition of trust, which is consistency over time, right? If we can build consistency over time, then we'll be able to do something great together.

It is going to take a little time, though. And so how do you build those relationships? I think that's a big thing for me is both giving people the fact they feel like they have power to make big decisions inside of crema and ultimately empowering our clients to be like, Hey, the risky moves that you're taking right now.

They're good. But let's give a consistency of our time to see results.

[00:44:30] Hannah Clark: This is your time. Awesome. Um, okay. So we have reached our Q and a period. Uh, so if, if anyone does need to peel away for their next meeting, uh, feel free. Thanks for joining us. We've covered kind of the core elements of the session, and we're just going to be finishing it off with a Q and a, um, but if, uh, but if you do have to go right away, just want to say, thank you for joining us.

And if you're loving this event, We'd love to see you at our next event, which is an interactive session with an expert in emerging technologies. Um, so you can RSVP using the link, uh, the link that [00:45:00] Michael's just posted in the chat now. Um, that's the addevent. com link. Um, if you're a guest today and you want to continue the discussion by becoming a member of our community, you can check us out at theproductmanager.

com slash membership. We'd love to have you there. Um, okay. And we can get started with some questions from the audience. So we're going to be kicking off with a member question that came in through our Slack community today. Um, and if I'm going to summarize, it's a bit of a lengthier question. Um, but basically the question is that they, uh, their startup that they had been working for has recently been acquired by a much larger competitor.

Um, Um, and they're keeping on everybody, uh, from their original team. And now, um, they're finding themselves in a situation where they were on a product team of three, where they had a lot of influence, and they're now going to be working on a much larger team. Uh, and they're feeling a little bit, um, unsure of how to proceed.

Uh, so they're not sure yet where the amount of control is going to land. Um, but they do know that everything about their work life is going to change. So they've asked the panelists if there's any advice for integrating with a new company and team and maintaining or protecting [00:46:00] your level of influence and building it from there.

[00:46:05] Victoria Ku: I'm happy to start. There were so many situations like this at Airbnb, not from an acquisition, but from reorgs. This is an opportunity. That's what I said. I'll start from that area because I know it can be incredibly draining. Um, it's an opportunity, and your job is to meet with as many people as possible on that new team.

Get to know them personally, right? Understand each other's goals. Like, start from the relationship perspective, and really just make sure it's clear. Like, you're there to help. You're there to provide context, you know, tribal knowledge. Whatever it is, you are there because the greater mission, like, you are here for.

If you in fact are, right, um, and that is an opportunity for you to come out as a leader like just from the gates opening and just starting out like a racehorse, um, and that because like I guarantee you that on the opposite side, they're also confused. They're also like, how are we going to do this? How are we going to integrate?

Right? And so you are showing yourself [00:47:00] as a leader of a team and you have this, you have this value proposition, which is previous knowledge of how everything was came to be. And that's incredibly valuable to the other team.

[00:47:11] Hannah Clark: Alright, and Victoria, I'm going to need you to stay on because our next question is also for you.

Uh, this is from Diana. So Diana says, I love these frameworks, uh, speaking about, uh, firemen and craftsmen and, uh, et cetera. Is there a list of different comparisons you've written or come across? I'd love to encourage this idea a little bit more within our org.

[00:47:28] Victoria Ku: Yeah, the one that I typically, they all, they all default to the same concept, but the one that I typically, um, default to is like cavesman, pilgrims, and townspeople.

So think about a society, the society is a product, um, are you the one that comes in and builds like zero to one? Do you turn a stone to a wheel, right? Are you a pilgrim? Are you able to take risks? Do you come in when things are like around 100 people? Do you build it to like 10 million people? Is that your jam?

Do you like the hyper growth phase? Or are you townspeople? Like, do you come in when the [00:48:00] town is pretty much built and you like maintaining the lights and you like maintaining the infrastructure and, and, and you like that security, right? All three are right answers, um, but it's just important for someone to understand where to put you.

But that is, that is. typically what I default to. If you think about like Pirate versus Navy, you know, um, Fireman Craftsman, like you said, um, they all kind of default to the same concept.

[00:48:22] George Brooks: Victoria, I have to say, I love that and I'm going to steal that because for us it's, it's, it's interesting because internally I've, I've explicitly said Crema is not a high growth company, right?

We're a small service business when it comes down to it, but ultimately we're trying to help other organizations be high growth organizations. And that's a weirdly, it's a very strange, uh, dichotomy in, in some ways of being like, I'm not, I'm not incentivized or even thinking about how do I scale Crema rapidly, but ultimately, so I'm kind of maybe the townsperson, but ultimately we, we, we tend to be the, um, the caveman, I guess, because we're oftentimes doing that [00:49:00] zero to one, um, you know, launching them into something where they're going to go take it and scale it to the moon.

Uh, so that's interesting. I love that. I'm going to, I'm going to steal that. Yeah.

[00:49:07] Hannah Clark: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, George, the next one is for you. So I'm glad you piped up. Uh, so George, uh, this one is from Ryan. Ryan says, George, could you give us any advice on how to tackle a CEO that doesn't understand the weight of their words when they're brainstorming with the dev team?

[00:49:23] George Brooks: Yeah, this can be really hard. Um, you have to know your, the personal dynamic between you and your leaders. Right. Um, cause. If they do, if you don't already have some trust built in, this can be a really tricky conversation if we're honest, right? Because what you're doing is you're going to say, hey, this might come across as a negative thing.

And my suggestion would be to talk, make sure that you kind of start with the positives, which is you often put out a lot of really good information. It sounds like, you know, you've been here for a long time. You know, a lot of the context. We want that. But what would be really helpful if you could in my team, the reason I'm literally giving you [00:50:00] the script that my team gave to me, um, which is what would be really helpful is if you could set up our understanding of what you intend for this moment to be.

Right. So just don't stop them from doing that because a lot of times what will happen is it feels like as a leader, you're being told, don't do what your gift is. Don't do what your, your proclivities are. And instead it's no, it's, it's give some parameters or guardrails to those proclivities. So just help them.

I would say, don't go in and say, Hey, your words have weight and it's making, it's causing me a burnout. Instead, come in and say, here is the aspect of what's happening. I know your intent is good. But ultimately, I think what might help us if you're okay with it is give us some, some, um, some context of what you're expecting from this.

Right. So let us know, is this a brainstorming session where you're going to be wanting ideas and everybody gets to contribute and we, you know, we're, we don't have to make a decision right now. This isn't going to add to our, our big rocks for the [00:51:00] year, whatever that might be. Or is this something where you need to make a decision by the end of this meeting because, you know, profits on the line, revenues on the line, the launches on the line, whatever that is, have them try to train themselves to come prepared with that context before they just start unloading it all out.

Each person's going to handle that differently. So I would say just one, be patient, um, recognize that everybody's human, they're, they're, they're gonna feel threatened, um, we all, when we're faced with feedback, right, we talk about radical candor, um, or that feedback loop. Um, I think the biggest thing, though, is don't come back with feedback that is only purely negative.

My suggestion, when anybody has feedback, is the feedback can be negative. It can be, this didn't go well. That's not helpful. This hurts. I don't like this. But then immediately followed up with, and here's my suggestion with maybe a way that you can make it better. And then the last thing I'll say is you have to understand when feedback is given, they don't have to [00:52:00] do anything with it.

That's really hard to accept. They may take the feedback and go, I don't agree with you. And they may continue to act the way they were. And that's then on you to decide how are you going to handle the fact that that feedback was taken or not taken, whether or not that's a place you want to continue to be or a team you want to continue to be on.

Those are all your own decisions. But ultimately, if they then still don't make the change, you can follow up and say, Hey, let me just, let me, maybe I can help you to understand why I wanted this. And I think that's just a, it's a really good way to enter in this space where you're suggesting a way to make it better, not pointing out all the ways that it's bad.

[00:52:38] Samantha Gonzalez: George, can you coach all of our CEOs? Session.

[00:52:43] George Brooks: Well, that is a lot of what is doing now as a consultancy, we're going in and working with leaders that are supposed to be doing innovation right inside their big B2B enterprise organizations. And the reality is, is sometimes innovation feels like I need to be really big and really [00:53:00] loud and have really strong decisions and everybody needs to fall in line.

And ultimately it's like, Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. I know why you want to do that. And so a lot of the coaching is. Hey, let's help you. And how can I walk alongside you? I'll use one real quick story example. We were doing a workshop with a, um, a insurance tech, um, um, startup that was scaling like crazy and the founder is brilliant.

He's been insurance for a long time and he has a very strong personality. He gets stuff done. Right. Um, but also he's the guy that gets stuff done. So there's a lot of awake behind him. And so what we knew is that my role as kind of the CEO of crema. was to just sit next to that guy, right? To just sit next to him, make sure that he felt seen, known and heard just like we all want.

But ultimately that he felt like, okay, no, I have a companion in this. And then it wasn't something where I was going to be like, no, dude, I'm going to make you look famous and awesome. And, you know, make more wakes, but make him understand, Hey, these [00:54:00] people care deeply about. Doing something great for your company.

Let's, let's give them the space to do that. Right. And so just with a soft kind of hand without holding his hand, um, you know, is to be come alongside people to do that. It's it is a slow, patient, uh, process for sure.

[00:54:22] Samantha Gonzalez: I love that. Love to hear that you're doing that too.

[00:54:25] Hannah Clark: Yeah. I love these insights. Um, okay, we don't have a whole lot of time left.

Uh, this one's for Sam from Josh. Josh says, what are some of the improv exercises you do? Like five things, one word story, gibberish, someone's obviously an improviser.

[00:54:39] Samantha Gonzalez: I was gonna say someone forced you into a level one improv in a dusty warehouse somewhere, I can tell. Uh, yeah, actually, let me share. I'm going to, nice.

I'm actually from Chicago and it's funny. I moved to Austin and started doing improv when I had come from the improv Mecca. I'm from

[00:54:58] Victoria Ku: Chicago too. [00:55:00]

[00:55:00] Samantha Gonzalez: Okay. Sorry to interrupt. So I'm going to share a open, uh, uh, spreadsheet. This is a Google sheet. So sorry if someone doesn't have access to those and I can share them in another format, uh, later.

Um, but this is actually a really great, uh, uh, collection of exercises that you can do with anyone. I do love five things. Five things is a great one. That's a quick one. So if I was to say, Hannah, name, uh, five ways to get to, uh, your job, you know, you would say,

[00:55:31] Hannah Clark: Um, a car. A train, a boat, walking,

[00:55:39] Samantha Gonzalez: and anything.

Yeah, right. Great. Awesome. So, and Hannah could say anything too. She could say, uh, you know, you, you dream you're there, right. Or, you know, you don't, yeah, you kill your boss, whatever, you know, something like that. Uh, it could be anything. Uh, so yeah, there's a whole lot of exercises that are quick. This one is a really great collection of them [00:56:00] for, for quick ones.

A lot of these can translate into remote activities. Um, the other one that I'll give, because we don't have a ton of time is remember when. So you're building a shared story together, which I really love. So, hey George, you remember when we had that surprise party for Victoria and she was like two hours late, right?

You remember that? Yeah, and

[00:56:20] George Brooks: Hannah was so drunk during that.

[00:56:23] Samantha Gonzalez: I know. That girl cannot hold her Aperol it's terrible. Yeah. Classic Hannah. Um, so that one's great too. And, uh, uh, lastly, I also love doing story mapping with really dumb prompts, like how to make toast or how to, uh, you know, clean, clean your room or change the cat box.

Things like that. Um, so there's a lot of like ones that you can integrate, like actual products, exercises too.

[00:56:50] Hannah Clark: That's awesome. One of my favorites, I'm also an improviser. One of my favorites, uh, that I do with my team is we start with word association and then from word association, we [00:57:00] start to expand on it and we do a situation association.

So it'll be like, you know, cat, dog, pet, and then it's like the feeling of, uh, adopting a new animal at the Humane Society. And then it like just kind of expanding. It's just kind of a fun way to like share a story together and get our brains kind of in sync. Kind of fun. Um, anyway, uh, we're right at the very end here.

We have a few other questions that were asked that we didn't get a chance to answer. So I'm gonna do our best to get some answers to these questions posted in our community for folks to check into later. Uh, and we'll try and post them on social for those who are not yet members, uh, so you can get your questions answered.

Uh, but in any case, I want to thank everybody for joining us today. I really want to warmly thank our panelists for making time to come and share so many of these valuable insights. You guys have been so awesome, so engaging. Love all of the stories and anecdotes. Uh, so thank you guys so much for coming on.

Uh, and I just want to wish everybody a great rest of your day and a great [00:58:00] weekend.