Why Mass Layoffs Shouldn’t Be Happening And How To Avoid Them

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Hannah Clark: You know the saying, "people don't quit jobs, they quit bosses." Now, I'm not a gambler, but I'd wager that every one of us has had our 'quitting bosses' moment. But what about those of us who ARE bosses—how do we keep from being the boss that our people quit? Or, maybe even more pressingly, how do we avoid being the boss on the deciding end of a mass layoff?

This episode is part two of our two part conversation with Jessica Smith, Founder and CEO of Savant Recruitment. In part one, Jessica and I hashed out the need to knows for those seeking jobs and climbing the career ladder in product. This episode is going to be a little bit different—this time, we're turning our focus to people managers.

Fair warning, there's going to be a bit of tough love ahead, but don't let the 'tough' part overshadow the 'love'—ultimately, we all want the same things—great companies with great people building great products. So, let's jump in. 

Welcome back to The Product Manager podcast. I am back with Jessica Smith, who is the founder and CEO of Savant Recruitment.

Jessica, thank you for coming back!

Jessica Smith: Glad to be here. 

Hannah Clark: Yeah, really excited to dive into this today. So, for those who weren't with us for part one, can we just recap a little bit your background and why you're so passionate about what you do at Savant? 

Jessica Smith: I've been a technical recruiter for the last decade, about 11 years. I started my career off in agency recruitment and then I decided to go the corporate route just so that I could get some more exposure to stakeholders and really learn what's happening inside of a company instead of just being on the outside.

So I did the corporate gig for a while and then I just decided to leave because I was noticing some problems at some of the companies that I was working at as well. And so the way I grew up in this space was very old school and not committed to making changes or, you know, they were stuck in the, this is the way that things have always been done mindset.

And so, when I started Savant recruitment, it was kind of on a whim. It was not well thought out if I'm being quite honest, but I knew that I wanted to go out and really solve some issues that are happening in the technology market. And so over the last two years, I've been building out Savant. I've been working with clients right across North America to help them with some of their biggest engineering roadblocks that they're dealing with in regards to recruiting their talent. 

But I'm thinking of my business on a much bigger scale and what the market really needs right now is an educator to come to the table. And so over the last year, I've been committing to building partnerships throughout my agency that not only help companies as they start to scale or continue to scale, but we just added a new partnership with ScaleHR.

And so my partner, Jeff Waldman, he specializes in leadership training in the technology market. So partnering with him was such a no brainer for me. As I continued to interview and speak with CTOs and leaders, there was a big need because there was a big gap in the market with technical testing and not having the time to do the technical testing.

And so we introduced CoderPad, which is an integrated development environment as another partner to our business. So we're able to take technical testing here in-house. All the community really has to do or all other clients really have to do is just pick and choose the talent based on how they perform in their technical test.

We have a couple other partnerships that we've been working with or working on. We just partnered with Communitech here in Waterloo as well because we wanted to be as resourceful as possible to the startups and scale ups that we work with. And so with that said, it's been a little bit of a mission getting to where we're at right now, but we feel like we have a serious competitive edge right now in the market because of the way that we've been building out what the next generation of a technology recruitment firm should be.

Hannah Clark: That really sets the stage for what we're here to talk about today. So in part one, we talked about what job seekers in the product space need to know right now. And today we're flipping the script around a little bit. We're going to be focusing on employers, so the people hiring and leading product managers and teams.

And to start off, Jessica, I'd like you to give us a little bit of a look behind the curtain. What do you think is the most troubling trend right now in product leadership at the level of talent acquisition and retention?

Jessica Smith: I think if we're looking at potential candidates that have the immediate experience versus the potential, a lot of what's going on in talent acquisition right now is we're having companies come to us saying, well, we need someone that's going to be able to come to our company and hit the ground running.

And unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way because people are coming in with different experience. I mean, you can get someone coming in with a boatload of experience, but it still takes 30, 60, 90 days to get ramped up to your company culture and what the product actually needs. And I feel like there's a huge gap when it comes to thinking about how people are really trying to hire talent and what they're really trying to do.

And they're wanting someone that can come and solve all their issues right now. But even with the most experienced product person coming into your team, they're not going to be able to do that right away. And so when we take a look at what people are asking for, we kind of have to say, okay, well, you do realize like when you hire someone, they don't just come in and hit the ground running.

And so it does take time to ramp up. Another thing too, that's happening in the market, there's a huge lack of career path planning right now. And so that's something that we wanted to also address in the market, which is why we've partnered with ScaleHR. It's because everyone's being told in the market, yeah, you should stay at a company for two years and then leave the company if you're not getting a raise, you're not getting a promotion. But companies right now, they're hemorrhaging talent. They're hemorrhaging money, but the answers are literally right there in front of their face. They know what they need to do.

And if they don't know what they need to do, they need to be seeking the help on what to do. And I just feel like there's a lot of blind spots, like again, leaders don't know what they don't know. And so when we take a look at the lack of career pathing happening at the companies or just a flat organization, you're not giving that opportunity for room for growth for the employee.

And so that's posing a huge problem right now. 

Hannah Clark: And I think that a lot of us even on the employee side can relate to that. I think this is like a common frustration that we see across the board across many industries. So we'll dig into that a little bit more in a moment. But I'd like to talk a little bit about some of the biggest mistakes that you have seen product leaders make when growing their teams.

Jessica Smith: When you're growing your team, it's really easy to fall into the trap of micromanaging new hires. And I understand, I just went into it where I was like, yeah, career path and the first 30, 60, 90 days, we got to get them ramped up. So I look like a total hypocrite right now, but micromanaging is a huge thing right now.

And just not investing in enough team development, if you're going to grow your product team, like you really have to understand how this growth needs to happen. And I just feel like if you're not investing in the team, if you're not investing in sources, if you're not investing in materials, if you're not having them, i.e., sign up for podcasts like this, I don't really have that thirst for knowledge. I mean, is it a product team that's really going to thrive and stay innovative?

Hannah Clark: That's a good way to frame it. So what do you think a lot of product leaders are missing when it comes to retaining team members? 

Jessica Smith: When it comes to retention of team members, again, I just feel like some companies, what they'll do is they'll put their employees on some sort of stretch assignment to see if they can perform and move up in the role. And I feel like, yeah, that can be there, but not giving credit to where it's actually due. And so what we're noticing is they're wearing many, many hats and more work and more work is being put on them, but they're not giving the product managers, the accolades, they're not giving them the credit.

They're not giving anything. And so when that happens, you're creating a team of chaos, basically, because you're creating a team of that could potentially burn out. And then if you burn out, your product's going to fail. And then the customers are going to see that and the customers are going to suffer.

Hannah Clark: That's actually kind of what I wanted to ask about next was kind of the stakes and I can see where you're going with that. Maybe we can elaborate a little bit more on sort of the stakes and sort of the domino effect that you've seen at play when a business doesn't take their processes seriously with regards to how they're onboarding and how they're retaining employees.

What's at stake and what are some of the concrete steps that businesses should be taking to take action early? 

Jessica Smith: Walk your talk. Walk your talk. Any organization that's putting values and mission statements on their wall, go back to the drawing board and really go back and visit your mission statement and your values as a company.

And are we living and breathing these values that we're actually talking about here? Or are we stepping away or are the values changing at the organization? What kind of people do we want at the organization? And is our leadership team really on board? So that's what I would recommend, but also to like, just get invested in having a growth mentality. And I find that because there's so many blind spots and like, you know, we say leaders don't know what they don't know.

And because there's so many blind spots there, it's up to anyone that's in leadership to basically ask for that help because there's so many different areas of education that you can become educated in and it's really dependent on how much better of a leader do you really want to become. Are you building the best company that you possibly can?

And so I think having that mindset, especially when it comes to growing a company or growing a team, you have to want to hire people and be that person that's thirsty for that knowledge. 

Hannah Clark: Maybe we can talk a little bit about that in terms of how you approach a situation like that with a client. So if you're working with a business, for example, that you notice those kinds of red flags, what are some of the concrete steps that you might take to work with a business owner or folks at the C-suite level in order to ensure the practices that they're using are going to have the outcomes that they want?

Jessica Smith: Yeah, for sure. I'm super data driven. So every single day and I just nerd out on technology. So I'm signed up to as many technology newsletters and basically anything that I can find where I can gain more knowledge. And so throughout my career of building this business, I have been keeping track of newsletters and important industry articles of things that are happening in our business.

And I've been starting to write about what's going on in our business and how to address these situations and how we're helping solve these problems. But the big thing, and I think this is a recommendation I can give to any founder or any leader, because I don't know if they're actually doing it, is that if you're involved in these communities and there's articles and important industry things that you're seeing that you know can solve problems, save a folder on your browser.

Use it as content to say, Hey, we've seen this use case. We've seen this case scenario. We can definitely help a client and like, we're going to refer this article to this client on how to solve this issue. And so, because I've had so many different issues come up, depending on, you know, what the issue is, there's an article for it.

Right? And so that's been my mission as a business owner is, okay, here, there's an article for this that I thought answers really, really well, and that's part of how we're solving the problems, but the problems can be nuanced, right? And so I just think it's important to just make sure that you're also keeping educational material for yourself bookmarked and tabbed to just basically go through and refer back to.

Hannah Clark: Yeah, that's a good idea. Actually, I keep a little bit of a folder of some of the kind of go-to articles that have helped me along the way. So I think it's nice to kind of create that dialogue using some reference material, able to put some of that in practice. 

I'm hoping we can talk a little bit about the tech industry layoffs now that we're talking a little bit about talent and some negative outcomes and that kind of thing and things that kind of started the leadership level. So as we all know, tech layoffs, they're running rampant right now. We're seeing them announced constantly. What, in your view, is the problem? Why are so many tech companies in a position where they're cutting double digit percentages of their workforce seemingly every other week? 

Jessica Smith: Obviously during the pandemic, there was massive growth happening, right? Like growth at all costs. And I think that's been a huge sentiment right across the board, right before the pandemic happened was growth at all costs. And then we take a look at, okay, well, how much pandemic basically happened. And it was a huge hit to a lot of companies specifically in the tech sector, though.

What I've noticed with the gaps that there is in the market, and it just goes back to what I've been noticing between recruitment firms and leadership teams is that there's a lot of recruitment firms right now that are treating their clients as a transactional approach. And because it's been so transactional for so long, there's a lot of recruitment agency fatigue out there between clients and recruitment agencies. 

And so you got to bring something extra. You got to bring something unique to the table. What problems are we actually really solving here other than just hiring for your team? How can we actually come in and help you grow? Because there's so much underneath the hood. And so when it comes to the layoffs, I just feel like they just shouldn't be happening, but I think that they're happening so much is happening right now because there's such a lack of education in the market on how to run and like we're looking at some of the biggest exits that we're seeing in regards to leadership right now. Like we're looking at executive leaders that are looking to jump ship from their own companies are stepping down or there's a huge shift that's happening right now in the market.

It's not just the mass layoffs, but we're also noticing leaders on their leadership teams are like, I'm out. I don't align with this mission. I don't align with these values. Right? And so it takes a company to sit with themselves and realize, okay, we're losing talent. We're losing this. Whatever it is you're losing, how you show up in your business in the next couple of years is going to determine whether or not you're going to be able to stay in business.

And like that's point blank period. So if you don't have the leadership team that's there to help support that, and that's really on this ride with you, especially during a downturn, that's up to you to kind of go and discover and really sit with your leaders and see if they're showing up. Because if they're not showing up, then it's going to determine how your teams are going to show up, and then it's just a whole trickle effect.

Hannah Clark: That's kind of speaks to company culture and how it's sort of something that starts and is modeled at the leadership level. I think all of us are familiar with some of those issues, for better or for worse. If we kind of take a step back and think about the startups that have been able to thrive in this economic environment, bless them, what are some of the concrete steps that those startups are kind of at the early phases of scaling their companies, what kinds of steps can they be taking to avoid the plight of the downsizing tech organizations that are kind of this cautionary tale for all of us? 

Jessica Smith: Just try and be resourceful. I mean, as a startup founder, your power is in your network, right? So your mission as a founder, a Mark Cuban said at best, your first couple of years, you need to be worried about staying in business.

Let's say, hypothetically, you go out and get funding. That's now an obligation. That's not a reward, right? And so when you take a look at how we've glorified funding rounds and this big congratulatory thing, as leaders are starting to realize, okay, now we have a whole boatload of money. Who do we have advising us?

And do you have the right advisors? And do you have the right networks in place? Or are you kind of just left stranded? And if you feel like you're left stranded, if you feel like that, you should be reaching out for help, right? Because it's not just going to fall on your lap. And if you're, you know, the venture capital firms or private equity firms that you're working with, they're not offering those networks and they're not offering that help.

If you know you're inexperienced as a leader, and this is your first rodeo in building a business, reach out for help. And I can't tell you how many times we've had founders come through that have lacked the communication skills to really thrive in what they're doing, and then they start running into problems because they're not communicating where they're kind of faltering.

And it's totally okay to falter, like it's totally okay. We all do it. There's so many mistakes that you make as a startup leader, like I make a lot of mistakes myself, but I'm actively out in the market trying to look for solutions, trying to look for help, trying to look for different advice so that I can always be in a space where I'm always testing different things to see what's working and what's not working.

It's only a matter of time before something lands. The thing is, is that if you're not actively out there, like how serious are you of a founder? Like you're either about your business or you're not. So it's up to you as a founder to really be educating yourself and getting out there and building that network of people that can potentially help you thrive.

And if you don't have that, I got that for you. So, shameless plug. 

Hannah Clark: We'll allow it. 

Jessica Smith: That sounds good. 

Hannah Clark: That's a really good way to think about it. It kind of reminds me of what you had mentioned in our previous part, which is that recruitment, but also just your career is a relationship building game. And I think that what we're really speaking to is that that's not just on the employee level or the career ladder climbers, but this also starts at the founder level as well.

To kind of build on that a little bit, do you have any specific areas or tactics that you would recommend, especially for folks who are really just new to the scene and haven't really acquired a large volume of valuable connections? Like, where should they be looking and who should they be, how should they be reaching out in order to kind of secure some of those relationships?

Jessica Smith: I'd say get involved with your accelerator community. There's so many resources that I have between Founders Beta and Communitech and wherever you are in the world, there has to be some sort of accelerator or some startup hub. There are hubs that are here to help you. It's a matter of you getting involved in these communities and what you're willing to do.

Show up at the events. Start meeting people. Start asking them about their most challenging business problems that they're having because you're going through them too. There's going to be someone else that's going through the exact same thing as you and I think if you start building your community that way and you start getting yourself out there, not only is that going to give you some recognition, but it's going to allow you to seek out and get the answers that you need so you can just get there a little bit quicker than you would have if you were to just sit on your hands and do nothing. 

That would be my advice. I think there's a lot of power in in-person networking, really. So yeah, that would be my advice is go out and network and go get involved in the communities that you're passionate about. And some of the people that are running newsletters as well, they're also hosting events. And even some of the people that you do sales with, they know what's up. They know some of the industry events that you need to be going to. Ask your sales team or ask whoever else is in the community for basically the up and up on what's going on in your industry. 

Hannah Clark: That's awesome. And I just wanted to, before we wrap up, ask you if you have any kind of parting remarks or advice about growing your team sustainably. If there's any kind of things that you would want to impart on founders, leaders who are looking to not become a statistic part of the layoffs trend. 

Jessica Smith: Yeah, for sure. I think your main goal is you're obviously trying to maintain your customers, but you can't maintain customers in a business that is unhealthy. And so if you're running a business right now that's unhealthy, you may have some bad Glassdoor reviews, you got to turn it around. And the thing is for me, from a recruiting standpoint, there's a lot of recruiting firms that may work with you and they may just treat you transactionally. But if I'm looking at numerous bad Glassdoor reviews, I'm looking to you as a leadership team to see kind of what's going on. 

And then you may need some leadership training to turn that around because we can't come into your business and sell a bad business to candidates. The candidate market is woke as hell right now. And so that's one of the first things that they're looking for is the stability of the leadership team, how the leadership team behaves. And just like anything, like if it was a restaurant review, you'd be going to see what the reviews are for their candidates are looking left, right, and center to see what kind of company that they're joining, that you don't want to be on the chopping block on Glassdoor with like a two star review, because you guys can't figure it out.

And then it's, it just looks too stressful to the candidates. You really have to get in front of your brand in the market and understand what reviews are coming in and what's being said about your company so that you can come in and address these situations and hopefully turn it around. But don't do it when it's too late because if you're one year or two years down the line and your leadership team's still a mess, I mean, at the end of the day, you're also showing recruitment teams or whoever is a vendor coming in to work with you, okay, this is how they operate as an organization, either they're cutthroat or this, right? 

So we use a lot of that to gauge who we also partner with, if they're considerate about the overall aspect of their company, not just, Hey, customers, customers, customers. You won't have customers unless you have a team that's healthy. Right? So it all starts from the inside. 

Hannah Clark: True words are never spoken for sure. And I think that we can all agree that it's better to catch those things in the ENPS survey rather than on Glassdoor where everyone is privy. So yeah, thank you for that. I couldn't agree more. 

Fantastic Jessica, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your expertise again. For those who didn't catch it in part one, where can they find you online? 

Jessica Smith: I have a company website, savantrecruitment.ca. I've also just released a YouTube channel, and I am on LinkedIn. So you can feel free to add me on LinkedIn. I have a company newsletter that I'm pumping out daily material. And yeah, just trying to add a lot of value to the market about some of the most serious and pressing issues happening right now and in the tech ecosystem. 

Hannah Clark: Thank you so much. I think that we should all take a page out of your book and keep ourselves up to date on what's going on in the industry.

Thank you so much for joining us. 

Jessica Smith: No problem. Thanks, Hannah. 

Hannah Clark: Thanks for listening in. For more great insights, how-to guides and tool reviews, subscribe to our newsletter at theproductmanager.com/subscribe. You can hear more conversations like this by subscribing to The Product Manager, wherever you get your podcasts.